As some of you may or may not have noticed, the number of users and drawings on 2draw has increased dramatically since the beginning of this year, and the rate of usage has similarly increased. Unfortunately, with the good there is bad, I'm finally reaching the bandwidth limits of my account, and for the past two months have been going over.

So, in addition to the cost of the server, cost of space (I also upgraded) and bandwidth is now an issue.

This comes to the question of what to do about it. As you can imagine, 2draw is currrently a non-profit site, and sells no services. Plus, I have no interest in advertisements or promoting other crap to support the site, it just isn't right. I think the furthest I'd go is a no-strings-attached plain sponsership that's displayed somewhere on the front page. Technically at the moment, cellosoft is the sponsor, but that doesn't mean much since it comes out of my own pocket.

A few months back the topic of selling t-shirts came up, but I'm not sure how keen on that I am. Mainly because unless they were overpriced, less than half the money you pay would actually go to 2draw.

I'm curious if people are interested in donating to keep 2draw running, if they'd expect anything in return, and how many people would be willing to donate how much. I don't really want to throw out numbers at the moment.

Plus, another possibility with the T-shirt idea is to make some nifty designs, but rather than selling them at $5 profit to 2draw, set it up as a donation of $50 or so where you get a "free" T-shirt. I've abandoned cafepress, but am looking at some less sucky t-shirt distributers that can do much better quality prints and non-white shirts.

And if we went with T-shirt approach, would people be willing to donate 'time' to 2draw.net for design of high quality shirts?

So I'm throwing it out, tell me what you think.

I'll certainly see if I can round up some money to donate. Not sure if parents would allow it, but I'm going to damn well try. Do you have a paypal account that we would send money to, or something of the like?

Also, I could take a crack at t-shirt design. It'd probably be best, though, to have a group of people work together on the idea, or some such.

I think the problem at hand here is not especially who exactly will donate, but how much and how regularly? The problem I've seen with most sites is that donating needs to be really a regular thing (in small or respective amounts) otherwise it only extends the extinction date of the site before nazi-ish rules need to be enforced to lock the bandwidth issue.

Tshirts are cool, but how many can you buy anyway... I like the idea that Penny-Arcade has gone into, where every month those with a membership (ie donating regularly) get something every once in awhile. Now maybe this won't work well for 2draw, but maybe something like it can be set up. Course, I don't like the idea of a completely paid for site, but maybe it will be fine if just a few people contribute regularly enough.

I dunno what I'd like on a regular basis... hrmmmm..... some cool and unique 2draw stuff, maybe some unique art once every few months, that kind of thing. I'd only be interested in maybe 2-3 tshirts depending on their magnitude of kick-ass-ness.

All of you have great ideas, I totally agree with you marcello about advertising crap,. The t-shirt thing is a pretty neat idea, And I would contribute my time to put in something for the design of the t-shirt any time, as long as you would want me too,. About donating, I would try to donatem, but I have a tite budget,. I would defently pay you 100$( I know its not much) Or smaller portions a month till I run out,.
About what Method3 said, I really dont think the penny arcade thing (paying monthly) for every one would be good, I know some people that are probably 8 y/o and have 10 cents, But if we had to Im game.

Anyways I think what would help is to delete all the acounts that have one not been used at all, or two delete the ones who have not been on in a year or so,. I dunno,.

If I had to do any of the things listed, I would do that, 2draw is a great place, And Id hate to see it go bye,.

I'd be willing to donate. I would'nt expect anything in return, except for drawing space and good people. And thats already here.
I like this site. You can count me in.

vv: Ya, I have a general paypal account I use for cellosoft/myself (there was a button on the old site, but I haven't put it on this one). They do take a small percentage of all donations (I'll get the exact numbers when I have a chance), but it's not a lot, something like 40 cents and some percent. I dunno if it's worth accepting checks by mail, since there's postage involved, plus added hassle.

I agree on "how many can you buy" for the t-shirts. Maybe one a year.

knockoff: the amount of space taken up by an inactive account is sooo minimal it doesn't make any difference whatsoever. The real problem is bandwidth, and obviously inactive accounts don't use any bandwidth at all, otherwise they'd be active.

And though you might not think $100 is much, I'd say it is. Even $10 is substantial and every bit helps. (Provided PayPal doesn't take it all. ;-) )

Of course, I'll try to implement code that helps cut down on bandwidth, but I don't want to resort to measures such as uberlow jpg quality, or mini thumbnails for every image. But for the most part I have it setup pretty tight, considering I've gotten this far.

Anyone else?

Well, I'd probably be willing to donate some to 2draw. And I could think up a shirt design. I could try, and if i like it, i'll submit it for ya, provided i don't hate it.

Random helpless thought that has probably taken up more bandwidth: Create advance accounts on 2draw that people can and want to pay for. Not quite sure what would be some features of it, but it's just an idea to build on or toss away.

problem with advanced accounts is on top of having to code more, people will have to pay that monaies every month/year/whatever, and they might not be able to, but then they'd lose their advanced account, and it'd gets all messy and shtuff.
plus it segregates users, and falls victim to the evils of advertising the advanced accounts and stuff.
It'd have to be a good balance of stuffs without being something you're obligated to want to enjoy 2draw at all. I could see a special board with higher limits that you have to donate to get in, but I don't want to do that. (I mean, seriously, you can't buy l33tness. ;-))
But it could be some thing special on your profile or whatnot if you donate, and some page that lists all contributers and stuff.

And as for t-shirt designs, keep in mind it has to be something so incredibly awesome and l33t that someone would want to wear it in public. And it should probably involve 2draw in the design somehow. Tastefully, of course. It's not intended to be a walking advertisement, even though technically it is. unless it didn't actually say 2draw anywhere obvious.

But ya, anyway.

Do you think the t-shirt could be a photo-mosaic-type deal, with lots of pictures from the site forming out the address?

I know I would pay for this, though I'm too young to have a paying job, I'd use my allowance through my parents. I have no idea whether enough people on here are able to do the same, though. And I agree with the "no advanced accounts" deal. Just look at xanga.com. That is the most frustrating thing I've ever seen! You can't get good backgrounds, pictures, or music without an advanced account. Marcello, you do an AWESOME job with this site, and I will do whatever I can to keep it up.

i'll donate some money when i get my next allowance, it won't be a lot but i hope it helps :')

Damn parents, they owe me like $200, il try to get them to give it to me and then i b gald to donate like $50-$75 for the cause of keeping 2 draw free.

I also like strangeoids idea with the photo mosaic.

I don't really like the photomosaic idea, seems corny. now if the entire shirt from top to bottom, in sleaves, over sleaves, between stitches, was one huge 'quilt' of pictures, that'd be sweet.

Hnn... I'd be happy to donate something, anything if I could, but I don't get payed until Christmas, Chinese New Years, or my B-day. So sadly, I can't do anything. Sorry...

As far as tee-shirts goes, there was this program where you make your own tee-shirts from pictures you print out and iron onto a shirt. It came with special paper, ofcourse, but I don't think its very cheap when you need more. Besides, no white cotton see through shirts. If it was a hoodie, that'd be different. I'd be willing to buy that!

ya, I think I have some of those. however, the hassle of making those and mailing them isn't really worth it, since the final thing won't be that great (plus again, only white shirts)

i wonder how much it will cost to ship a t-shirt all the way across the ocean to me ;u;

I am willing to donate some money and I like the T-shirt idea!
But...... I dont have a paypal account and i dont really want to make one....I've tried before and it didnt work.
Is there any other way i can donate?

Hakkai: Hoodys would be very cool! :D
I have done a few of those iron on t-shirts and......to be honest they are crap and not very good quaility.
You have to iron them on to white t-shirts as well......or else they dont show up!

If you were going to get T-shirts done i think you would have to get them done in bulk, and professionally because iron on things just wont do the job properly.


I may only be able to donate £50 or so but i spose its something.

I sure will like to help you out Marcello, namely because you've managed and maintained such an awesome site. I don't have a paypal account or anything (because I don't really trust them for some reason) and I won't be able to ship you any money because I'm saving for my sis.s' birthday gifts. But what I can do is try to come up with a cool t-shirt design. I need some ideas thrown at me though. I have an idea in my head allready, but I want to hear from the beloved peoples and our beloved moderator. :3

I seriously do not think tshirts will help much unless people buy alot of them. The reason is simply because people are not going to buy them regularly, you get one and that's it. The profit to 2draw isn't going to be more than $10 a shirt or so, likely less. It's not like this is gonna hurt the site, but in order to help in the long run I think something more solid will have to be put in place.

Monthly thing shouldn't be a big deal if you're going to donate like $5 bucks every month via paypal or something. Now if more than just a few people do, people older than 10yrs of age..., that could easily translate into maybe $30 a month. Obviously getting something back would be worked in, plus i don't think it's necessary to set something up where you have to pay or you lose an account or something. Just plain donation probably wouldn't be an incentive for the majority of people.

Bottom line, if it's not regular then it won't work long term. I know this because I work with a local LAN non-profit organization, and we've done the tshirt thing. We have people paying regularly every month. The tshirts (and other apparel) were basically 1 time, and the organizers were the ones who bought them to give em away every month because not enough people bought them after 2 months or so. The way we keep going (and even give out huge cool prizes) is by monthly entrance fees at most $15 and as low as $6 per person. That ain't bad if you get the chance to win a $300 prize right? Course this is ~60+ people regularly...

fin_beast: you can use a credit card to donate to a paypal account, so you don't actually need a paypal account yourself.

method3: well I'm guessing gamma's costs are a bit higher than 2draw's. I mean, it's probably as much in a month as 2draw needs in a year. :-)

As for the t-shirts, one site I saw was 99dogs, and it seems a little less lame, their pricing puts a plain white shirt at $14 base price, and if for example we set the t-shirt donation at $35, that's a $20 donation to 2draw. Now, how the pricing would work and all that, I haven't a clue, that'd be something to decide once we have designs.

That place does have stuff like bags hooded shtuff, but it's just one possibility. Look at the prices and see if it seems worth it.

As for people making t-shirt designs, keep in mind the images will have to be super high resolution, so I'd say don't do anything more than concept sketches for now until the technicallities can be worked out. Feel free to submit ideas on 2draw, for that matter, since it's the easiest way to look at them.

$6/m per person is not an option. :-) Hopefully something like this won't be any more necessary than once a year... but I don't want to fall into a PBS syndrome...god that's awful.

PBS Scenario:
"Our number is listed on the bottom of this screen, call now to donate to this special cause! And now, here we have our number one user and moderator Marcello here to sing and dance for our amusement. Dance biatch, dance!"

Hey now, that doesn't sound half bad. If it is once a year, we could do like an annual design (tshirt or whatever) thing that maybe everyone who had access to some form of money would want to buy. I dunno about the pricing on that site, but just reading the stuff on the side sounds pretty good. As long as the design has in mind what is actually possible to print well you should be able to get some pretty nice shirts. I've never heard of 99dogs though.

Mmm....the printing sounds nice.....i like how it says.....

"Produces a true, vibrant colored applique that sits on top of the fabric."

......mmmmmmm.......

lol....Im such a freak! O_o

Method3: I'm thinking you should have a good go at a design coz your very good at.....Well cool stuff like logo's n'shit. XD

Oh, that's a good idea. Method3 should do the logo. His graphic design stuff is teh l33t. Didn't think of that before. Whooshed right over my head.

I can give a good mass of money once a year, and at least twenty a month.

^^; i unfortunatly don't really make any profit for myself at all (but i did do like a volunter work thingy and am going to get payed like 40 bucks...) SO.... i cant really say that i would be able to donate that much anyways i could try and talk to my parents about it though...(like they care --;...) BUT we just had T-shirts made for my volleyball team and they cost $15 for stuff on the front and back with the shirt so I am sure putting one thing on the front could not cost that much and i would be willing to pay money for it if it looked good.

what if everyoe left the 2draw window open like all the time and didnt brows so much adn also delete some of the old crappy beginner shit
http://www.contagiousgraphics.com/index.html i was looking around and this site had some god cheap t-shirt printing
http://www.brunettotshirts.com/index.html here too

Yes but the difference with those is they print em all and send them to me, and then I have to go about taking orders, packaging them up and mailing them out. Places like cafepress and 99dogs do the order handling, packaging, and mailing. If everyone on 2draw were in the same city that'd be another story. I know I don't have time to do any of that order handling and packaging and mailing stuff. Plus wholesale printing generally requires like 20, 50, 100, etc. prints that you pay for in advance, so it's harder to try out several different designs.

"what if everyoe left the 2draw window open like all the time and didnt brows so much adn also delete some of the old crappy beginner shit"
I wish people would stop suggesting stuff that they don't understand. I've done basically everything possible from my end, the only way to allow as many users who visit the site continue to visit the site is to pay for the bandwidth that's being used by them. I mean sure, I could close down the site and make it completely password protected so only a select few people could get on, but that kind of defeats the purpose of the site.

I have One other thing, I dont know if you even like the idea, But After oo lets say 500 pictures, You delete them on the boards and keep them just in someones profile,.? I dunno It might be dumb to you,.
*shrugs*

that's kinda pointless, now isn't it? it's extra work and it doesn't save any space.

O Ok i wasnt sure,. *shrugs some more*

auction the shirts or whatever your doing now on e-bay!!

=3

WTF? Who would buy 2draw shit on ebay, and for what reason? Anyway, that 99dogs place looks like a pretty good alternative to cafepress, and their site actually has a clearer layout i think than cafepress.

Prices are fairly reasonable as well for custom tshirts, and they actually have stuff that can do colored shirts... nice.

I will think about a 2draw design... actually had a few in mind. I will probably have to learn Fireworks MX better to be able to do a large and scale-able design. Will work when I have the time... and I get something in my studio done so I can actually draw something new.

just a random idea that probably wont work unless you have massive visitors (say, 1k+ active users)

an anual drawing. through the year, users can donate a buck or two, or four, ect for 'tickets' at the end of the year, you pay for the bandwitdth, and run a drawing for giveaway on the rest of it. (assuming there is any...) to the winer/s of the drawing. giving away free Tshirts to however many next runners up you can afford.

I know.. still sounds a bit corney, but it might prove to give us more incentive to donate, if we know our contributions might double/tripple/quadroople and come back to us ^^;

but again, I dont know the user statistics of the site, so this might be a very unworkable solution.

I'd be willing to put some time into designing a Tshirt for the site as well, and I'm capable of handeling large images. (I think the largest image I ever designed was a 24"x36" poster in I think it was 300 DPI, CMYK. high quality Tshirt shouldnt be a problem ^^; its just beeing able to make it unique and attractive with what limmited options those printing co.s give you. ) so whens the deadline for idea submissions (assuming you decide that you'd like to try the Tshirt idea)?

There's no deadline, just whenever is possible, I suppose.

Um Hows about "Special Accounts" to push people to plop out money?Like extra features and what-not? lol and as for shirts, hell yea Ide Rock a 2draw shirt.....Ive always wanted a shirt that says "I Bought this shirt off the internet." lol Hmmm I dont make much, I work 3 days a week and the minimum wage in this state is disgusting ($5.50) , oh yea and i can polly olnyt be able to pay through money orders. So post up the adress yo!

Ok, I've finally added a donation page.

surf over here

Hn. Well, Definately an interesting situation... Hey, T-shirt drawing contest anyone???

Well, It's not likely that I'll be able to donate by paypal, but I could easily go by cash or money order. And it won't be a huge sum of money ^^ I'm only 12 here!!!

if you're under 13 I suggest at least getting your parents permission, gotta remember COPPA...

Yea I think a 2draw logo competition would be cool for getting a logo for the t-shirts.
hmmm....*strokes chin*

well...., 2draw coffe mugs, 2draw mouse pads, 2draw dildos, maybe having to pay a monthly fee to be an administrator (if qualified or existing)... and a few banner commercials wount hurt just as long as there are no pop-ups... some ideas...

banners hurt, very much. and are lame. plus you make no money from them.

How about sell posters? Or um... have 2draw's little artist's shop, so people can sell merchandizes with their 2draw drawings on it. And you can charge from between, maybe?
Since banner isn't a good idea, what about try to see if there's any company willing to sponsor, like those graphic software company or something like that. They may want a link to them on front page, but it's better than banners

How about sell posters? Or um... have 2draw's little artist's shop, so people can sell merchandizes with their 2draw drawings on it.

How?

see if there's any company willing to sponsor, like those graphic software company or something like that.

The idea has come up, but I haven't tried anyone. The only sponsor that I can think of that would actually be applicable is wacom...

about selling poster and merchandizes with drawings done on 2draw.net, i guess that will invovle lot of coding of the site... :( kind of like what deviantart is doing, they allow artists to create a print account and chose the pictures they will sell prints of. and if other ppl wanna buy it, they buy it thru deviant art (as for how they print the picture out, i'm not too sure, probably some connection with print factories), and both the aritst and deviant art make a profit from it. but then again, it's loads of trouble coding...

Numbers. We need numbers to really get a grasp on what needs to be done, what can be done and how to do it.

Axil's right. (as usual..) It's kind of hard to make concrete suggestions without knowing what 2draw's exact needs are. Exactly how much money do you anticipate 2draw needing in donations per month to comfortably stay alive?

As for the merchandise ideas, I really think that if you can pair up with a good company that will print quality merchandise with 2draw pictures (users being able to select the images) at a reasonable price and who will take care of all the shipping, handling, blah, garbage that you don't have time for and don't want to do, you could easily sell things like posters, postcards, etc. on a regular basis. (Not necessarily alot of t-shirts, that would be more like a one-time stay floating thing). I know ppl would order things with their own art, and art done by others, as well.

Basically anything you do on 2draw isn't going to worth anything printed out at 300dpi (dots per inch). We've got some things in motion though already, hopefully we will be able to get some stuff done on that soon so we can get some feedback or something. All research into these ideas have been pretty shallow though, just the tshirt + other apparel and such and deviantart prints have been looked into.

yes, but numbers...how much we lookin at?

Right now it's $80/month. Basically anything suggested should be researched somewhat to give at least a fair return to 2draw (ie something more than a measley dollar). There are still brainstorms in progress.

$80 a month total to 2draw? That is so doable. And I think just kill the t-shirt idea and hook up w/ someone to do other merchandise, like posters and postcards. You'd sell alot of that alone.

If your drawing sucks, it will still suck after you donate.

lmao, that's funny

(edit, PS. I wouldn't mind donating, it's a good cause)

I wish I could donate....but I cant...hard when you cant write checks or use credit cards..but when the time comes I'll donate XD

right, I don't have a credit card... or checkbook, if you can believe that, at 31 years old... lol... I'll send ya a money order Marcello... gladly... I love this site! and your applet rocks...

I didnt read all the posts cuz i got this idea and i wanted to write it down. Maybe if you have people donate, and if they do, they get their own picture that they drew on 2draw on the t-shirt! i dont know how much that'll cost for an individual design shirt...but it's an idea :)

I'd get a tee shirt with any design from this site...'cept my own i think...hmm...yeah the other ideas were better...unless you like mine

I know this isnt the most appealing thing, but you could get some companies to place ads on your site... I despise popups, but as long as they dont interrupt the user whilst they are drawing, I am fine.... X)

This long post addresses the idea of getting direct individual prints of artwork done on 2draw:

Ok, let me just type up some real numbers concerning making prints from drawings on 2draw. Let's hypothetically assume that we'll have to deal with another site like deviantPrints where you have to submit an image of a certain size and such before you can get a print. Ok, if you think about that for a minute, that means that every thing you want a print of, we have to submit to deviantPrints to get printed, which limits really what is going to be printable since we'll have to send the image (something automatic could be written if it's actually worth it...) but it is still something to think of. Let's ignore that though and look at some numbers:

Let's say we have an average canvas size of about 300x300 pixels. What kind of print of this could we get? The minimum print size for any print on deviantPrints is 3.5"x5" which has a minimum resolution of 525x750 pixels (that's 150dpi). Already we're seeing a problem here with our average canvas size which eliminates a ton of pictures. But anyway, what if we had some kind of automatic script that would generate a border of black or white (or of your choosing?) that would get the picture to the right size. This means that for our average size, 225x450 pixels have to be added, which is 1.5"x3" when printed out. This means that your image will be 2"x2" with this fairly large border around it. Keep in mind this is at a minimum of 150dpi,

Let's say we scale the image instead of adding border, so we go from 300x300 to about 500x500 + some more border (which they recommend so that printing doesn't look off if something gets cut off a little), This means that you are reducing your image to about 90dpi (which in my opinion will look like crap) in order to get your image printed.

Ok, fine, what about images that fit the size at 150dpi? We do have some good images at 525x750 pixels or so already (I think... maybe?), wouldn't it be worth it still? Let's say it will be worth it, what are the prices we're looking at then for a 3.5x5" print? They're prices are: $0.25 base price, $0.49 default price. What this means is that it will be a minimum of $0.25 with the profit to 2draw or the artist of $0.12 (that's half of the amount above the base price) and I don't think 2draw will go much farther above the default price. Ok, but still, tons and tons of people will be getting it right? At that price it's a steal right?

I've just gone through the S&H part of deviantPrints for a single 4x5" print and the lowest S&H price listed is $1.95. Ouch. You'd have to get at least 4 prints or so at a time to make the stupid S&H worth it (maybe not even that depending on what you mean by "worth it"). Ok, even so, how much is going to go to 2draw? Let's say 100 people get the print. That's a whole $12 to 2draw, woohoo! I'm not saying it's not worth it, but the chances of 100 people getting a print of that size or of any picture on 2draw seems slim to me. This does not seem like a viable solution for the effort I believe it would take. I sure as hell don't want a crappy postcard of stuff, why not just anticipate all these image sizes right from the get go? That's what 2draw Ink is for and what I believe is going to be "marketable". Every image you see there is potentially good enough to be reproduced outside of 2draw at full high resolutions, 300dpi in order to get a larger print from deviantPrints or tshirts or whatever.

Feedback on this process? Who thinks this will really take off now that I've laid out the average process and things that should be considered?

The only thing I can imagine is on the prints going for something higher such as $5 a print minimum. But there is the obvious problem of resolution and quality of a print. Do you really want to spend $5 on a print where you can measure the pixels in mm?

I don't know.

I don't think that many t-shirts will sell. I think if you can resolve the problem about the quality of the prints, get with someone to print cards or something and you will sell tons of them. I'm pretty sure of it. Mom's will order their kids' art by the scads. (If you don't delete it (lol) Lots of ppl will order their own, and that of others that they like. I think it's worth a try. And it's up to you if the artist gets any... I wouldn't worry about that. (They can just write it off as - well, now I don't have to send in a donation and I still have a place to draw) You do all of the work here, you provide the site for free, their reward is getting to draw here, so?>>>>(Just put it as an agreement upon entry that their art may be used to promote, and/or raise proceeds to keep the site running) It's pretty simple like that.

I would be interested in buying a mouce mat, if you were selling them with the 2draw logo on.

sounds like a good idea DBA... :)

I think if you can resolve the problem about the quality of the prints, get with someone to print cards or something and you will sell tons of them.

Any suggestions? How do you "resolve the problem about the quality of the prints" if the original works are at low resolution? There is no magical way to increase the resolution that I know of... I'm all ears for ways to solve this if you guys think it'll fly.

Probably the best one could do is scale the images with digital interpolation... but that will not look very good for 90% of the pictures on this site. You will simply end up with a low quality print that will not even look very good at postcard size (maybe postage stamps? :-)).

We could do sheets of stickers, heh. I wonder if anyone is doing that...

edit:
Another concern is image proportions, for stuff like cards...

One possibility, brought up by method before is to get an account on one of these sites such as deviant and offer select images for purchasing. This way we can scale up the images and allow the artists to go back in and sharpen it a bit (since scaling will tend to blur the image depending how much larger).

From deviantprint's faq, the minimum size (in pixels) for a print is 525x750 (for a 3.5x5 inch print), with a recommended resolution of 1050x1500 for the same size. Their minimum DPI is 150, and maximum is 300 DPI.

They also mention what we have said above in their faq:

My piece is not the resolution or DPI you recommend. Can I still sell it?
If your resolution is too low to create a quality print, then we simply can not offer it for sale. It damages all the artists and the print service as a whole to make lower quality prints available to the consumer.
Why can I not resize the image to the correct DPI?
You may not resize smaller images to larger resolutions. This destroys the quality of the piece, creates "pixelation," and such submissions will be rejected.

SLR Cameras - If you have taken a photograph with a SLR camera, simply rescan it at a higher resolution and DPI. Local photo stores and developers can provide this service to you if you do not have the proper equipment.

Digital Cameras - For users of digital cameras, your camera will have to support the minimum resolution output of the smallest print size.

Digital Artists - For straight digital artists; only high resolution pieces are eligible for sale.

The problem with deviantprints is that they will be getting over half of the profit, as you only "receive 50% of the profits above the base price."

So it all gets rather iffy...and while all these ideas are nice, they need to be considered while looking at real companies that would actually do the work...

I would buy a coffee mug with a 2draw logo on it!!! I mean, most of the time I sit down at this site is in the mornin' with my coffee!!! BTW... My father in law owns a company that prints to t-shirts, coffee mugs, pens, hats, mouse pads, logo'd socks, and sweatshirst! (including hoodies) Being his favorite son-in-law, I could have it done for cost of material. The only thing needed is a master, copywrited print. Just an idea to throw out there!

If anyone is interested in pens with the 2draw logo or something, try klio

Checked that site out.... pretty cool. Might get myself some pens made with my bands' name on them.
Wouldn't permission have to be gotten from Marcello to get a pen made, oe anything done with the 2draw logo on it>??

Yeah, sorry, what I meant is that in addition to selling t-shirts or something, you could try selling pens through that place.

Dude, I'd buy crap with the 2draw logo on it. Shirts, pens, coffee mugs, socks, luggage, lava lamps, I don't care how useless it is, I'd buy all that s___ and show it to all my friends like they were photos of a hot girlfriend. I may not have a car right now, but if you make a 2draw bumper sticker I'll slap it on a shirt and call it a deal.

The problem with all this promotional material is that it's just that... promotional material, hence drawing more users in, taking up more precious bandwidth. Marcello, I vote (haha) that you write a super complex AI system that can determine when a user is submitting crappy art and/or comments and completely cut them off from the internet. That should work, right?

Well, I'm going to make a few T-shirt designs now, because it sounds fun. I will imagine myself wearing the PNGs like togas and dance around my apartment, because there's nothing else to do in Gainesville right now.

I'm gonna be paid for lawn mowing at my grans soon so i'll see if i can save up like £50 to donate and then some to buy anything that is made.

2draw t-shirts!?!?!?! i'm game. Maybe...not sure if it would be too much of a hassle but maybe....you could have the person sign up for one and pick an image they might like on the front or back or sumthing. Then the 2draw logo could also be on the shirt... but would t-shirts just be an advertisment and MORE people sign up? I dont know. The t-shirts sound cool tho', and a $50 keepsake would be worth it. ^_^

I agree with Deadly.. cards and prints are more likely to sell ( and sell repeatedly) than tee shirts. Hope you figure something out soon. Meanwhile, I'll send a donation and hope lots of others do also.

Problem with prints is we're still not seeing a good way to handle them.
As for t-shirts, we're actually ready to get that up and running (I started messing with a few months back), but I've been too busy with school and work to get it completed, so that is currently on hold.

Another suggestion (unless it has already been made by someone else on this thread) is to take the best of the showcase entries and print them in a book of some sort.... That may sell money... Or postcards of the showcase entries... Or greeting cards... Or, hell, ties!!! I dunno... Well, the tie thing would be cool... I wonder what people would think if I were to walk around town with one of Xodiak's master(bation) pieces on me tie....

I'd buy a 2draw tie and wear it to school. That'd be awewsome! I think the whole t-shirt idea is great! I would buy one for sure. Can't wait untill they start selling...... but if your trying to get money for a bigger hwtaever so that more people can be on than i think i might agree with jack... wouldnt be like an advertisement to be wearing a 2draw t-shirt? Oh well in a month i think i'll be able to dontate! ^^

As far as the Tshirt idea goes, plain white tshirts or well, any of the colors are actually really cheap. Maybe 5 dollars or so. So if you bought a bunch of those and sold them for say 10 dollars, like normal places sell tshirts for, you'd have a 5 dollar profit. I know a craft store around here has tshirts and hoodies in different colors and the tshirts are 5 dollars and the hoodies are 7 or 8. Check out Michael's crafts and different stores like that. Also Sam's Wholesale Club has the plain tshirts ond long sleeved tshirts and sweatshirts and things cheap. Soon as I can make some positive cash flow I'll send in a donation to the site.

Don't forget you have to print on the shirts, and mail them. Takes time and money already.

What about a bake sale? We could sell some of the half-baked people on here.....

Lol Jack! And some of the fruitcakes, too..

I dunno if this could be of any use but just an idea (ooh, I'm such a genius...) how about pamplets or something? Or flyers lol Ahh.. wait too tacky. nvm lol

I think I may have an idea. How about T-Shirts with a user's pics on them? A User could order a t-shirt with one of their own pics on it.
(and a 2draw logo on back of course) I personaly would love to wear a shirt with some of pictures. Plus a unique outfit would definatly attract
attention. How does that sound?

ehh.. breac... It's in the proccess of being done.

it is?

it will be... right? I should say, it should be

hey marcello...can make any good difference if you can use some free space on a server?, i presume it´s not the "big" money involved about your problem, but i read in the post that you have to upgraded that item too, how much space do you need?...i´m asking because in a month or so, i have the real chance to administrate one of those (a server, i mean)...i don´t know if you remember but some time ago i write to you asking about the applet used here for a project...well, the project is ON....and a server it´s involved...uf excuse my english...ok, so if you tell me the amount of space do you need, maybe we can fix that item at least...i really don´t know if it´s possible even, technically i mean (guess it is)...i´m a teacher in a university so the offer it´s a non profit offer, the project itself is about to enhance all the marvelous ways of communication that NETS provides and how we can use it to learn or teach...i´m pretty sure everybody who participates over this nice site agreed, about they found friends and the possiblity to express themselves in here...so if i can help, let me know....i can´t offer money, ....did i mention that i´m a teacher in southamerica? no spare money...hehehe
2draw can´t dissapear ok?

I think we should set up a place for ordering things, I would sertantly order a t-shirt or nick nak from here, 'cause it's my fav site!

Why don't you start a Preimer Membership thing, It work's like this: You have people donate money to the site and they get special privilages such as having more canvas room in the begginner draw section, or they can start polls, and stuff like that....I guess that'll work..possibly

=Odd-Nightmare=

Or you can put banners advertising the green card lotery, viagra pills, casino gambling, winning a plasma tv, or Kara's xxx or something. >:)
|XOD|

How bout just making prints? Made to order. Every artist should also be given the opportunity to sell their work, for donations to the cause. This way everyone can feel they have helped the cause and not only invested in this site but also given all artists the reward of knowing they have sellable talents! = } Just a suggestion.

Hrm, then do we need to worry about copyright. We can't very well sell drawings of simpsons and stuff, now can we?

If thats your only complaint then just say that non-origional stuff cant be sold. Unfortunatley, from what you have said previously, it sounds like it is impossible, but remember I have that monster color laser Jet HP 9500 PCL6 printer that can print on just about anything at any resolution. Its just a matter of having that resolution, and bigger canvases.

Why do you have to be so arrogant? I was talking about our original artwork, not the copyright material. I was merely making a suggestion as to how 2Draw could raise funds and keep the bank account fluff, so this site could stay open! Any one of these artists I'm sure will agree, it would be very cool to sell their artwork. Many of us don't have the luxuary of selling it as a rule. Besides, those that only draw anime might find they really have talent beyond drawing copyright pictures only. The same goes for the Simpsons and any other copyrighted animations. BTW, I take personal offense to the remark about the Simpsons, since you are aware I'm certain of my artwork on collab and alone. With everyone having the same opportunity, it would become a major group effort. WE all win! I'm sorry I had to tell it to you like this and you probably will ban me from here now. But you are harsh, insensitive and clearly selective in who you like and don't. That's ok, I just think a little sugar goes a lot further then vinegar. I am not a professional artist. I came in here to enjoy myself, meet people of my peer and to become a better artist. I, with the minor exception to the jabs from you and a few others, making their jabs at other artists, have enjoyed my visit in here and appreciate this site! So, do what you feel you need to do. I am past caring.

Sorry if it came across as arrogant. The problem here is that I personally do not have the time to do basically any of these suggestions, even if I would like to. The only way it would happen is if someone coordinated and figured out all the logistics of such a process. Sure I can work on the code, modify the site to allow something like this to be streamlined, but when it comes down to it, someone needs to take orders, physically print, package, and mail these suckers out.

Anyway, the problem is that people keep suggesting this things and they just die at that. A good idea is no good if it isn't done.

I agree, and also accept your apology. I think that it can be done and we could do it ourselves. This is your site and so therefore all pictures are covered under the 2draw.net team/Cellosoft, copyright. So you and anyone that is also a partner have exclusive rights to the artwork done in here. Granted, you wouldn't want to do anything with the artwork that the artists themselves were'nt made aware of, so that is why we as equal partners in the artwork will be informed and up to date on the books, and can do the work.
I don't want to see this site end. Believe me it's hard to find safe and good places to go. So far it's been my experience that anyone involved in here without a doubt meet certain criteria, thus keeping the riffraff away. If we all as artists agree and maybe some how there be a written agreement to our "mission", that we will do our part to save this site. 2Draw will offer any original artwork created by the artists, and can be printed on high quality photo paper or heavy bonded printing paper. We could charge a dollar a piece. That seems fair and resonable and I for one can think of literally hundreds of dollars I would invest in artwork from these awesomely talented people. I realize most may not own a printer or a scanner. So that presents a bit of a problem for some. However, that could be upon an agreement between the buyer's and the seller's as to how they will receive their prints! OR, If it's possible, on this site could be the store, gallery if you will. This would be the place that one would go to order from any artist. The funds could go to that address you already have established for the donations. They put in an order and someone a moderator perhaps notifys the artist they have an order. This individual or individuals incharge of running the store can have all personal info, private and they could also have any information on all artists that can print the copies themselves and those that cannot, the ones that can, can take responsibilty in reproducing prints! This would allow continuity of things so everything would go smoothly and constant. I would gladly offer up some printing for the effort! To not over burden anyone solely, we would need many involved in the task.
What'a ya think? = ) Does this sound do'able? Talk is cheap let's do it! I'm very excited. I slept on it and I am certain we need more money for the prints to cover the cost of postage. So maybe we should charge at least $2.00. hummm...

Hrmm.. Let's see here.
As far as copyright, work here is actually solely copyrighted by the artists (see this), so basically in order for a picture to be allowed for printing, the artist would need to submit it and grant printing rights, etc.. But in general, copyright issues I don't think will be a problem (but can't be ignored, was the point of my other post). For that matter, does anyone have any legal knowledge/know someone with legal knowledge for something like this? I mean, it would really suck to run into problems of that sort later. (For example, derivative works, such as someone copying a photograph, how derivative do they have to be before they can be sold without various permissions, such as ED's final fantasy character pictures, or many of Axil's pictures...).

Onto the technical issues... I think a completely decentralized art sale system (each artist printing/sending their own prints) is not going to work very well. The only advantage is that the artist can actually sign the work, but it essentially turning the print sale system into something along the lines of eBay...

Although that gives me a neat idea... What if artists actually wanting to personally sell art (anything really, printed digital art, or even analog) through eBay and give some % to 2draw. We could set up some official listing system through 2draw so the art sales can be found easily by 2draw members, and maybe some template to include in the eBay description linking back to the 2draw art sale idea thing. I know very little about eBay so I don't know if any of this is legal, but obviously it'd be done through the honor system (artists would send in the money on the own accord). But if that sounds plausible to anyone better informed about eBay, feel free to expand on that idae.

Anyway, back to the technical issues, as discussed above, some kind of centralized printing system would be ideal. Even better would be to go through some existing print service such as deviantprints or ... actually I cannot remember any other sites we found. We could start out doing it ghetto, but if it's popular, find out some way to "partner" with whatever company so we can streamline/automate the system.

One must remember how poor these low res images look printed. There really is no way to avoid the pixels unless the image is upped and 'repainted' by the artist.

Which brings me to an idea I've slowly been working with... 2draw gallery. Still much in its infancy, the idea is to basically create a digital gallery, of select works, and have the option of selling select pieces. Basically it would be taking a slightly more elitest approach to the whole idea, but also would be a stable way of showcasing 2draw work. Pieces for printing could be reworked by the artists specifically for each show, which solves the resolution problem. The sales could be done in more of a prestigious manner, the idea being that you are donating to 2draw. The key difference here is the artist would get the money, again, and some % decided by the artist would go to 2draw. The idea of going a step further and having a single sale per piece enters my mind, but I'm not sure how reasonable that is with digital art which is, afterall, just a copy.

So the idea there would be quality, not quantity. Which is something I personally am fond of.

Just ideas...

And I'm now seriously considering some kind of 2draw membership thingy. I won't cut out any features already free, just add new stuff for 'premium' members. I really don't like the idea of splitting the community though, people shouldn't be compared based on how much spare change they have, and doing things like premium membership just makes it worse.

Should 2draw be a commercial place? I don't know. It kind of conflicts with the philosophy of the site. Then again, to be self-sustaining, I wonder if that is necessary. After all, I can use spare change as well.

Responding to your last question. Should 2draw be a commercial place? NO, no and NO!

Isn't there some way to generate a memo to all, that goes out simultaneously regarding the first posed question on Sept. 29, 2003? This way you are certain that everyone has read the memo and is in complete understanding of what is going on and what may take place. Letting them know that it's up to each of us as users of this site to contribute in some fashion. If no more then just suggesting to how we can make this work. Maybe send out a people pole to find out how many would want to participate. "It's your site"! You can't make people read, but if you present the information you need to convey to each and everyone on here, then they as users need to respond. If they do not in a resonable window of time. Then you as the owner of this site can opt to remove their access to this site. Now this would only be if they fail to comply. Make them aware that this is a serious issue and must be addressed with careful consideration and promptness. Let them know you have exhausted all ideas that you personally have come up with and now they need to make a decision. I think this is fair and resonable. I think that everyone of us should be informed as well as involved in the structure and salvation of this site. That is if we intend to stay here.
Next, with their at least opening the memo which now would be marked as read, constitutes the next steps. Give everyone the right to submit artwork for the effort. You can nominate people of your choice that you see as honest and true critics of talented artwork that can make up the gallery. This could even be your moderators, and of course you, in deciding what goes in. They will judge any submitted artwork as well as seek out artwork that they deem as true work that would sell and continue to sell. OR, you can make a new portion of the front page field for all to please vote on selections that have been determined sell-able. This once again will allow everyone to have involvement and that really is important. I dunno, I have never paid to go into a site before. I think it's too risky. I wouldn't mind possibly having my artwork out there for anyone that may want to buy it. I realize that for the most part, all Showcase pictures would be involved, and I haven't made anything worthy of the Showcase yet. But, I'm optimistic and I will continue drawing as long as you'll have me! = )

Donation at the moment is still probably the best way to go. The problem is, there are a lot of young users on 2draw, who cant donate. Im 17, dont have a job, live with parents. Cant donate. If i had a job sure i would donate. A lot of us are WILLING to, but cant because of restrictions, wether it be age or income.

Hey everybodys got cool icons. I want one. (im noobie)

I think if u make a Xod shirt everyone would buy one. Who wouldn't want a Xod Shirt.

yep...

*crying* Thats so sad! I will help when i can until i cant feed my family which i dont have and i have to sell everything to stay above poverty. or i'll just help...

i wanna help... so i'll save up my birthday money! but there's still six months to go...

I love this place! It's like my home! I want to help! I was thinking maybe if you start your own line of mercendise. (can't spell that good) Maybe if you take the art from the showcase (if they say it's ok) and start small and work your way this place might stay running! Then you could start making sketch pads or notebooks! People will see this wounderful art and start buying them! Not only will this place be popular and a well know site but it will also have more than enough money! It might even become a fad and people who don't know this place very well will have something of 2draw! I'll buy a shirt! XD

I think people would prefer a Disney shirt than a 2draw one and they would give their money to one of the world's richest corporations than poor 2draw and Marcello would have spent many sleepless nights trying hard to arrange all these and even paying from his own money just to see that there is no profit... <:~(
|XOD|

hehe, I just had to wind the scroll button 29 times to get here... :)

I pressed the end button :P

I'm great at these sort of things and maybe I could help! Plus does Disney have some of the most talented artist? Well.... anyway that's not the point! I would do anything to keep this place open so it's just an idea.

i'll try to save up, if i stick around 2draw long enough (i've got short attention span) so yah... if i do, i'll definitely send you an email to find out how i can send you something... (money order has to $20 right? that'll take quite a while.) but i love this site anyways, and it would be sad if you had to start billing people up, instead of donations... maybe i'll start today, save a dollar, and in 50 days you'll get the money order (exchange rate is USD 1 - SGD 1.77) THANK YOU FOR SUCH A GREAT SITE. LOVES!!! (oh. but if there are shirts. i promise i WILL buy one.)

I needa ask my dad if I could donate. He has a paypal account and I would love to donate to 2draw. Right now I have like $57, my mom owes me $247 but I'll never get that...-_-;; but i always find change on the ground and save it up. i need $20 from my $50 though for my own site...and hm...well as long as my dad says yes, i'll donate as much as I could :)
And i love the idea of a tshirt. I'll wear anything I want in public so even if the tshirt is crappy, i'd still wear it.

This is a really old Forum. I understand We are still having problems, so is this idea still in effect, or?

Oh I never noticed how old this forum was! gottin_regen was posting on old threads and I thought they weren't old since someone was posting on them!

Cello I have not sent anything to help out with 2draw, but I am getting a very good job in about 3 months and will be sending a very generous donation to you. It might take a lil while but you'll get it. I kinda feel guilty about using this and not paying anything when all of it comes out of your pocket.

Are there any users that havnt logged in withen a 6 months or a year or somethin? Theres lots of people who make accounts on sites and then never use them... maybe like post 1 thing right when they join and then forget about the site entirely... thats probibly one problem (sorry if this has been repeated).

ok hi...I have an idea, what about auctioning off some of the original pictures that are included in the showcase on e-bay. I randomly chose one of the pics ( red panda's dragon tree seedling) and I can blow it up in photoshop to 8x10 size without turning it all pixley. I can probably get it it to go as far as 11x16, but that might be pushing it. I can pay for the prints. I can get them on 80 lb ( I think, it might have been like 150lb) acid free glossy or matte finish for $1.29 a piece american. It wont break my bank to pay for some of them. My kids Godmother has an e-bay store and I imagine for a small percentage she would have no problem posting the prints. Anything bought would have to include shipping and handleing.

Thats my idea, I have seen some real crap sell on e-bay so I think that a beautiful print of original work might have a chance at pulling something in.

Interesting idea, I can't imagine the point in auctioning prints that aren't signed, however. So that adds an extra step in the process. Otherwise they're just posters, but the idea of selling on eBay is still a possibility for that, I suppose, seems a bit sleazy, but that's just my impression of eBay in general.

On a side note, blowing those images up to 8x10 in photoshop without doing some serious editing will not look good. If we were to do such with existing drawings, we'd want to have the original artists perhaps do a little repainting on the blowing up version so it doesn't look like a blurry mess. Quality is certainly essential for a site like this.

Any artists interested in contributing their work for something like this, though? Maybe we should make a list of drawings that artists are willing to contribute to the cause, are good, and other people would be interested in buying decent prints of? That would be the starting point.

I would donate a print or two of my own. I do some nice photoshop stuff as well as hand done. Well I think I do at least.
http://www.geocities.com/srcibroski1/maandba.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/srcibroski1/chrome_beastie_et.jpg
I could put them up for auction and see how well they do.
E-bay is sleazy though ain't it, I saw a baseball regular baseball...that sold for like 1000 some dollars...well just read this...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5569872897

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but maybe you could get rid of things that would increase the bandwidth availability. For example you could get rid of the animation on the drawings unless some people watch them a lkot. So do you watch animations regulary?

I do not think Marcello will easily do that. If you notice, he has made 2draw to be keeping as much archive as possible. To be more exact:
2draw keeps old pictures forever.
Each revision is saved separetely.
Old drawings cannot be deleted, even if the artist wants to.
Applets that use animation optionally are always set to save the animation.
|XOD|

Taking away the animation would be a stupid idea. I helps you learn about and from other artists' techniques.
I do think however, that users should be gived the option to delete any of their own pictures.

I'd be willing to give up some artworks of mine for prints for 2draw. I've sold prints of my work in the past, and I know my way around programs like photoshop at a professional level.

I am willing to donate any of my pictures. . . whether or not anyone would want them is another question entirely.
I can also give a meager monitary donation. It won't be much but I'll try and give a little every month or so.

I think people should email you their art to see if it meets standards before they can sign up. I mean, I'd hate to send my art then be denied access, but it get rid of a lot of the junk that's posted on here. Sorry if that was already mentioned but I didn't feel like reading this entire thread :p

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought as long as the person is putting effort into their pieces posted on the beginner board, there is no problem...? People 'can' practice can't they...? I dunno about you guys, but I appreciate hard workers even if they aren't up to par. Anyone serious about practicing should get to stay...

I agree. There are plenty of people who aren't, though.

Practice is a perfect reason to come to 2draw, but it isn't really necissary that you submit your drawings. It would take up less space and we wouldn't have to worry about all the worthless drawings everywhere...

Kraisa I saw this pic --> http://www.geocities.com/srcibroski1/chrome_beastie_et.jpg
in here -->
http://www.oekaki.xodiak.com/profile.php?user=blewdragonlady
Is you, right ? just checking >_>

T-shirts are a great idea, i would be willing to donate my time to making them.
I thought it might also a good idea to make pins with designs on them, in my experience they sell faster because they are much cheaper. Might help?

I think the t-shirt idea would be great! We could pick people to make shirt designs, but I think the people should have been a member of 2Draw for atleast 2 years or more. I'd love to see a t-shirt designed by Mai, I'd buy it. :D

The t-shirt idea sounds nifty! I'd buy one.

i'd want to make t-shirt designs, but i ain't good enough *plus there are many talented artistes on 2draw! @^@!!!*

mai shirts= love


2draw is the bestest place ever =( i'd donate, but then i can't cause i'm broke n such >_< *tear*

whatever happends is fine with me. I will donate money weatether or not I get a shirt, sticker, poster whatever...but if there availible, I would buy that too...

I heard something like 80$ a month.... thats not a lot, considering how many people go here... or maybe Im wrong... I dunno...Im going to donate, pretty soon...

is this thread still applicable? i read loads of it then realised the date was 2003.

Well instead of advertising and if someone already said this I apologise I didnt read all of this I'm not that patient, instead of advertising with like banners and stuff maybe you should have a board where all the greatest artists of copying lables or stuff like that and have them draw the ad out for the company in order to actually recieve money for being the possible designer for their next logo or product shape, who knows if it does work out it could be a very succesful thing, but of cource I thought about it and well what I came to the conclusion of was " Hey smartass, THINGS COST MONEY!!!" and then I thought for a couple of mintes and said well maybe we should wait until like enough people are donating to the site to even use money on an extra cause like that but all I really want to know is if this idea makes any sense to anyone besides myself whatsoever?

D=> Uhh, Why not just find some way to get a marketing director?..Or maybe this site should cost money to sign up now..(although, no other art site is like that (>_>);;..)..Um..I'll try and talk my mom into letting me donate (X_X,) I love this site..

EDIT : Yeah >:D 2draw T-shirts FTW <3

I'd interested in knowing what the actual storage requirement for the site is and how much bandwidth is being used. if you figure over 60,000 submissions (over 83,000 including ones not here anymore) it could be a lot of space, plus the forums, plus the site code, plus the applets. The host for my website gives me 800 gigabytes of bandwidth per month, which is about 799 more than I need until I finish remaking my site...

It does use a lot of space (I think I calculated about 20-30GB last time I checked). The main issue is processing though, most shared hosts would not have enough processing power to run a site like 2draw. Currently the site is running on a dedicated server that gives us more power and control. Moving the site would be very complicated and annoying.