Here is an interesting question that hasn't been discussed yet (I think). I don't personally think that 2draw has really taken in a large percentage of "professional" artists out there (and that's not a problem). But do you think that even so, 2draw can begin to achieve works of this quality as an example? Or this? Or this? CGTalk is (I assume) dominated by professional artists in all sorts of fields, so it is easy to see that they have high expectations of all entries. 2draw definetly is good about allowing all skill levels to participate and that shouldn't change. I just linked some random 2D images that I looked at today, some good work imo.

So my questions are, do you think 2draw can get up to that quality of work? Or do we have some images of that quality already?
If not, what do you think holds 2draw back the most? The applets themselves, the canvas sizes, etc? Maybe even presentation?
What do you think we can do to encourage the quality of work without discouraging the beginner artist?
Do you think 2draw can get to a high quality standard simply as artists get more experience, or do you think we should do something proactive to encourage/recruit more people?

I hope you will think about this a little (and I will too) and reply with some good thoughts.

I seen all those pics before.

I hope 2 draw like that in 5 or 6 years.

I seen pics like that on 2draw just not alot of them.

Having been through the Showcase multipule times, i can say we definitly have work of that quality.
I mean... Albury's dream car... lol... that says it all. I have seen few CG pieces on the net that surpasses it's quality, even ones done on professional software such as Photoshop, like those 'Ladies of London' pieces.
I think what is holding some people back is the applets, ofcourse, these are internet based and can only get so good, they do the job as they are now, but i think some more tools might be helpful, and get rid of all the minor bugs that plague them, like Shi-Painters random language thing o.0
Another might the actual tools of the users, i believe alot of us would only be using a ball mouse, or optical mouse at most. CGing is a relativly new era, and most of us who are gifted with artistic abilities would be much more accustomed to using traditional mediums than a mouse, eg. myself (EDIT: not saying that i'm at all gifted ofcourse XD). Obvioulsy, the solution is Tablets, which are expensive. So there isn't really a feasible solution to that.
The last major problem would probably be Time. Personally, i can't draw for more than 30 minutes in one sitting, i have absolutly N.O patience what so ever with my own art, so if it doesn't start to look good after 30 minutes, i give up.
Some of you might have the same trouble. How you 'hardcore' artist manage to spend hours upon hours on one piece is beyound me, but most of us i think i can say safely are not motivated to excert so much effort.
Actually one more thing that has just sprun to mind is Tutorials. It might be nice if the good non-lascaux users would make some good tutorials on the applets, and if we get enough of these, we could pin them on a tutorials board.
Wowzers, i wrote too much =S

I don't think we have artwork of that quality (or at least that degree of refinement) yet. Aubrey's car was an amazing excercise in realism, but the thing is, it wasn't a particularly creative work. Comparing it to the pictures above is like comparing apples and oranges. Those above show a level of both creative exertion and stylistic refinement that is not yet accomplished on 2draw, although I can think of a few artists here who have come somewhat close.

I'll amend this post later with thoughts on where 2draw can go from here.

I tend to think that for the most part we haven't reached that quality, whether or not it is just on a case by case basis. For example, this CGTalk image is awesome for the hair. I think the only thing that comes to my mind that "competes" is this Madonna image which I still like alot but doesn't quite get to that "real" point. The wording I'm using here is iffy, so that's why I use the quotes. What I'm saying is that few images come to my mind concerning that quality of work (although I guess it's applied only to the realistic style).

In my opinion it could be just the applets holding people back because they are relatively new. On the other hand, Photoshop has been out there for a very long time, version after version, and has been used by many people for this kind of thing. Maybe the tools need to be messed with enough before we can see these kinds of things being produced. Of course I hope you guys who even cannot spend 30 minutes at one image may consider revising an image as many times as necessary until you feel the image is "done".

One more thing I would like to add is that perhaps it really does take someone who does art as a profession to accomplish some images. That is, they must be creative as a job in order to survive to push the boundary, maybe it is not sufficient to merely tell oneself "I want to get to this point." I don't want to put anyone down mentally because I am putting myself in the same category but I think this is the truth. In fact, I try to look at a lot of art just to expose myself but I do not see myself reproducing work of that level yet and I am exploring the ideas of how to get there as a community.

No one wants to hear the cliche "practice, practice, practice" without having some idea of how else to get from here to there.

I'm just curious to how many active users there are who actually post work are on that site.
That site is obviously aimed at professionals. The posts are voted on annually and the winners are printed in an industry magazine.
I don't think this site ever will or should aim to rival a site like that.
To do so would alienate most of the current user base on this site, including myself.
This site already has some incredibly gifted artists who already stand out and there aren't many, if any professional artists currently submitting work here that i know of, i could be wrong. Of course it would be great to see some more quality art posted here along with what there is now but I think the site will continue to grow and I think that the different levels of experience and technique should be continually encouraged as it is now.
I think a better comparison site would be deviantart, which In my opinion, and others opinion as well, is an inferior site in terms of design. I also think that the level of quality going through both sites is fairly close in quality. I do know that there are more professionals posting on deviantart, but that is due to the fact that they can post work created outside the site. I think the inability to post work created outside this site hinders the numbers of artists willing to use 2draw but at the same time i think it adds to the charm and character of what this site is.

in order for 2draw to reach that level of quality, would mean to change the character and purpose of the site. personally, when i began using 2draw, even my stick figures were pitiful. this forum was and continues to be a great instrument of learning and growth. look through the galleries of most intermediate level or higher artist here and you will see astonishing strides in their work quality. that has to do with familiarity with the tools, skill development, and a few other things.

another factor i think that must be taken into account is age. i am not familiar with the site you linked here, but i would venture a guess that most of those artists are in the high teen (youngest) to adult range. 2draw draws a younger crowd for the most part, and therefore will not have the same polish and skill in their users. you cannot deny the advantage age (practice) has in terms of quality, despite any raw talent the artist may have.

to me, 2draw's greatest utility is as a place of exchange (knowledge, art, etc.)...and trying to push it to such an overwhelming level of quality would destroy some of that. having said that, however, i do think that all artists here should be pushed to grow and improve. even the best have something to learn. everyone should strive to do even better than their best. that is the only way to improve.

perhaps one idea for the improvement of overall quality would be to set up a 'mentor program' for those interested in which a more skilled artist could be paired with a less experienced artist. i'm sure a one on one piece development and critique could be very beneficial to the less experienced artist. also, teaching someone a skill helps you learn it more fully yourself, so the more experienced artist would have something to gain as well.

so let's go out there and learn!!!! *break* hehe...yeeeeea. ><

Another thing I have noticed is that many people like to work at large sizes and then scale the image down so that they can introduce detail at a very high level on CGTalk. For example, working on an image on the order of say 4000x4000 pixels and reducing it to a normal viewable size certainly is an advantage. Do you think this is something 2draw can/should take into account?

Obviously 2draw should not seek to compete with other sites, 2draw should dominate other sites in its superiority. But it does not seek to compare itself to other sites in some aspects, so no we will not be aiming for entries solely to create prints in an industry magazine. But certainly it is a nice idea that I think 2draw should incorporate if the community would benefit from that. I do not know the number of active artists there are on the site, but on average there are 120-140 entries submitted every 48 hours (going by the numbers on the latest entries board). Do you think the size of the community comes into play here?

yes, i think canvas and space restrictions play some part in quality. but those things are certainly not the only things keeping 2draw from that level :p nor would it be practical to remove them...

I think that for 2draw to reach this level of quality is to allow picture uploads. >;)
|XOD|

Well, I think that level of detail is quite possible in the applets, though it might take more patience than in Photoshop. One factor here is that those guys say stuff like "I did this in a day" and I'm inclined to believe they mean literally most of that day was spent working on that one picture. That's a level of dedication that is simply unavailable to most artists here, who are currently taking classes or working other jobs.

In fact, that much devotion to a single picture is not very beneficial to us as artists. I'd wager that those artists have come pretty much to the fruition of their technical abilities, while we're still studying to improve. We (generally speaking) still have enough to learn that spending a few hours per picture on a variety of pictures helps us more than spending a dozen hours on a single picture.

A good analogy for this might be trying to find out what's the highest weight you can bench press (like producing an extremely detailed and hard-worked picture, ie "what's the best I can do?") versus trying to get stronger by getting the best workout you can (like being less devoted to individual pictures but still working hard at learning).

I think it's quite possible that 2draw could have artists and artworks of that caliber, were someone here so creative, talented, skilled, devoted, and willing to do their work pro bono, so to speak. Those are some high requirements. Still, just looking back at where the upper echelon of picture quality was a couple years ago compared to where it is now, I have little doubt that it is very much a possibility. Especially considering how developed some of the artists here already are--with no signs of slowing down, I might add.

One other thing: Method, I think you hit on a very important point when you said Photoshop has already been around for a long time. A lot of people who would otherwise be interested in sites like this bristle at the thought of having to learn to use a new drawing program. Someone who is a total whiz in Photoshop might be trounced by the local artists here if forced to use these applets unfamiliar to them. Does that mean that in the future we should try to make the transition from Photoshop and the like to 2draw applets easier? I don't know. That involves questions of the real target audience, and the real intent behind the design of the app.

Just thought I'd say this is a really interesting topic. :)
I think maybe it's time that's holding people back. If they are professionals, then drawing is their bread and butter (lmao. Bread and butter). They have time to draw because thats what they do. They will also be highly dedicated to their work and I think that makes a difference.
||EDIT|| lol. What Zack said.

Well, one of the most important aspects of 2draw currently is the simple fact that you cannot upload your own images and the fact that you must use the applets on the site. This is a certain bottleneck for sure, and some of the potential solutions I think could be an improvement in the applets that would allow more "photoshop features" or something. Even allowing one to import an image into the applet to be modified could be a feature, or just plain being able to upload an image to 2draw.

But I think one thing that keeps the community together in a sense is the fact that everyone is basically on "equal ground" here. The fact that you don't have photoshop doesn't hinder you. The biggest differences most people have is having a tablet vs. a mouse, or what applet they prefer. Being able to upload an image may introduce some aspects that we really haven't thought of or can't predict, maybe potentially opening some issues up like blatant plagiarism and copyrights. I'm still all for the idea as long as the main focus and intent is work produced here on the site, for the site.

Perhaps it's not just learning a new applet that is like Photoshop (or whatever program the artist is used to), but being able to identify with tools similar to traditional materials and being able to intuitively adapt from what "feels like a pen" or something to imagining and creating something new with the pen tool and whatever other tools are available to the applet. At this point I think it is difficult to make a real bridge between applets and traditional materials. I think our target audience are artists who are involved with both aspects as a means to create, and the intent should be to develop/present their skill as opposed to being an all purpose application like Photoshop.

I think the single thing that I find the most limiting here, and it certainly won't apply to most people here because I don't think most people do this, but at least for myself when I'm working on my home computer in Photoshop or Painter I'll spend 20+ hours working on one image because I work it and rework it over and over until I think it's done. I literally use 20-50 or more layers on my files, occassionally merging the layers, and some of them get up to 500+mb in size. Sometimes maybe just 5 or 10 hours are spent, sometimes 30 or more done off and on over a period of weeks, but that's not something I can do here.

The way I work is normally with small changes as I gradually build up an image but I've found, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's because you're keeping a history of every action I do in the applets that takes the file size up higher. For example my last drawing has a jpeg size of 22.9kb but the actual size of it is 271.4kb and has a file limit of 500kb. So I've used more than half of my working memory already, and because I use so many small actions they quickly build up the amount of space the image is taking. I think if anything what I've learned from being here is to be more direct with my style and use fewer details because I just don't have the space to keep going on something for much more than about 2-3 hours before I'd need to ask for more space.

Actually the 271KB is a result of the PNG being saved along with the JPEG. The animation file is almost always considerably smaller than the png/jpg.

Marcello

Well, since I am an art major and I think there's a good chance I'll pursue game art, I'll probably be competing with those guys eventually. I know I haven't quite found my style yet, but nothing good comes out of rushing a process. It's all in a matter of time. A year can mean a lot of improvement. Especially if you're taking art courses and getting great influences at an art college. If you notice, most of those pros are at least 22+ as I have seen a number of them on DA who do match the skills of those images method3 has posted. I dunno about anyone else, but I think I've got the determination and confidence to pull such a thing off through practice and more art studies.

So if you didn't save a copy of each version being uploaded then it'd be significantly smaller? I know I've seen work from someone like shudson that was a single version and yet still took up 1.5mb though.

don't feel like explaining it. space usage is complicated.

If you want to see how space works, Marcello wrote a huge comment on a picture I did of a dog way back in my user board. We gave him 100 points!

I think that Lascaux is different than photoshop, but in a good way. If it wasn't for Lascaux I would porbably have never attempted to draw online other than microsoft paint (which is what I used to use). Now that I DO have a copy of photoshop, Lascaux has helped me have an idea of layers and stuff that I otherwise would have been too frustrated to attempt. This isn't really a professional site, but it's a really good one. I don't think you could really make it a whole lot better and user freindly. There, are however, a couple CG artists getting paid for their work. I know that Icats is starting to get jobs, and Cloxboy is a professional illustrator too. There may be even more.

If you look at most user boards, and especially mine, there is a huge difference from the first to the last drawings. I have noticed even more marked improvement in others. Lascuax is probably more powerful than people have tried to take it (although I have seen some that must be pushing the limits!), and I think the more people use it, the more they will be able to do with it.

Personally I like the fact you can't upload pictures on here to rework... if anything I'd suggest having a separate gallery of user's work done off the site where they could only upload pictures.. while still having the main portion of the site be devoted to art created here. Also, Photoshop experts including those on the above mentioned site have been exposed to, and have mastered, digital art in general for countless years. So to compare their work with someone who is only just now being introduced to Lascaux or Shi Painter who, for the most part, has never worked with art on a computer before they got to this site, is not only unfair but is as someone else pointed out... comparing "apples to oranges". There are alot of luxuries this site might never have because it IS a website. There isn't an infinite amount of resources to produce a picture because it does have web constraints. But that in itself lends great appreciation for the work many people create on here without those tools.. You learn so much more when your brain has to think of how to create an effect using those tools given than when you have it handed to you like in Photoshop. It's an incredible way of developing skill and growing as an artist, which so many people have been and continue to do everyday, including myself. I believe the effort of creating art on this site is greatly unappreciated. You wouldn't have the Beginner, Intermediate, and Advanced skill level boards if you didn't expect people to develop artistically. You have a great foundation to have so many more great works of art come out of this website after everyone has a chance to learn and master the applet. Instead of worrying about the art people have created mastering someone else's program, why not wait and see what happens when someone masters yours. All it takes is time.. After all.. Rome wasn't built in a day.

So true Aubrey. I totally agree , I use photoshop and know that it is a totally different and more powerful tool than what is here. Not knocking these programs , which are great, but they don't do as much as photoshop. Also like you said these people are experienced with working with digital art. I would like to add my own 2 cents and say what you may call or take for quality may not speak for the masses. I personally think that there is Really GREAT artists on this site, and think some could stand up to " quality " or at least stand shoulder to shoulder to some of those artist. :}

If you want good quality don't ask me to make one....

Sure why not? The level of quality is not the issue here because in my opinon the level is great. We have people how even started the love of art here so does the level of quality matter if you helped someone start there love for something?

I also wanted to add to my previous post (and to some others) that a lot of people can really, really draw. I think that I myself draw much better with a pen on regular paper because I have mastered the tools. Other people can paint so well in real life. It's just a matter of time until the artists computer or program abilites match their artistic abilities. All of the people that I know on a pseudo-personal basis on 2draw are basically first time CG artists. My extenet of computer graphics (before 2draw) was microsoft paint and inklink, so there's still a lot to learn.

guess it all depends on how seriously you want to take it all... for me, it's always a damn mood thing.. well you all know me.. pfftt... Anyway, I think there is some great talent on this site, but I think, uh, it definitely can't be expected of everyone who joins

What is the highest DPI that the applets can use???

DPI = dots per inch

That will depend only on your screen resolution or what size you decide to print out. See this article. The applets are limited by number of pixels, not resolution.

DPI has no relevance to the size (in pixels) that the applets can use. While I don't know what the maximum is, I'm sure it's not limited except by practical means, which is to say at some point the file becomes far too large for submission and/or the applet slows down to a crawl. Since Lascaux can at least handle something like 1024x768 pixels (check the ink board), 4000x4000 might be possible.

Someone should draw one of those pics on 2draw to see if the applets can handle that quality of art.

This guy draws pics like the ones method3 gave links to.
http://cellosoft.com/2draw/view/44249/

Yeeeah.TRIP is a girl.

*laughs* I'm flattered you think so :) But I myself believe I'm still a few degrees away from that perfect circle, you know? But that's the bane of every artist; I tend to hate what I have drawn or painted days, weeks, sometimes hours later. Always finding something to nitpick at, something to clean or fix. Lightsorces and anatomy. It's a challenge but adds to the prize of achieving the level of skill you wish to possess. I do not think these applets have the full capabilities and quality that programs like Open Canvas or Painter can give, but it's damn near close :P

And it's okay, I think half the internet fails to see I'm a female anyways :D

Half the internet things I'm a girl, so it all evens out in the end.

I have the skills to match those people too, and I'm going to prove it in this next picture I'm working on.

what I don't get is those people who think I'm nice.

what are you talkin bout marcello...you are just the sweetest thing :p

lies!

I might be wrong, but I feel that most of the people visiting online drawing boards like 2draw or other are young or teenage girls. >;)
|XOD|

It's true :( Just turned (cigs, porn, and driving) 'legal' last christmas :P But not all of us are pervertedly gorgeous model studs like XOD :D

*sighs* I just started drawing on a computer last june, it would take me a lifetime to acomplish what those peaple did on that site. But 2draw seems more homely than that other site.

I can draw on my own computer with my own programs, I come here for community. That cgtalk site, even though I've had an account there for months, doesn't seem very inviting to me compared to 2draw so I haven't done anything on that site yet except look at a couple pictures. I think that raises the question- Do we need to compare ourselves to them?

Well, the comparison is in terms of picture quality. I agree that CGTalk seems like less of a community, so I don't think we need to compare 2draw to them in every respect; we don't want to be CGTalk. 2draw will always be 2draw, but the idea is whether we can still achieve that level of quality (not to be confused with that standard of quality). Have to say though, after seeing the influx of talent recently (including yourself), it seems almost like an inevitability.

I think we ahould stop thinking about it. Most people just want to have a good time, draw, and talk about art. About the quality. Does it really matter? We have A LOT of great artist but for the people who are learning and trying.... what about them? I mean if you want to inprove the quality wouldn't that mean you would have to kick them out? I am sorry for being so straight forward but I think your quality is something to be admired and this site has nothing it needs to change. I like the quality. ^^

No, we wouldn't have to kick anyone out any more than we already do. Like I said, level of quality, not standard of quality. What I meant by that was in improvement in the top-end of the artwork on this site, not the average quality, although the latter seems to be getting higher lately as well.

When I say that I believe that top-end artwork on 2draw could be even better, it's out of optimism, not a lack of appreciation for what's already here. Many of our best artists show no signs of slowing down in terms of improvement.

well method3 did say it his first post that we allow people of all skill levels here and "that shouldn't change." I think we could encourage people to try harder and give each other helpful advice without ignoring people who are just starting out.

As far as improvement for intermediate and beginner users, I don't think I can stress enough how helpful an easily accessible and thorough tutorial/documentation system would be. Right now there are some tutorials on 2draw, but they aren't centrally located or accessible directly from the front page (like through site docs or whatever).

I saw someone say something about a "mentor" system a while ago, and the thought intrigued me.

one on one piece development and critique

Mentor system sounds cool in theory... but really, what would that entail in order to be practical and useful? Having people point out stuff in comments is certainly helpful, but getting someone to basically teach you stuff is something else altogether. I mean, no one wants this. People want the techniques that will allow them to render their ideas, and sometimes they can't even teach that right in schools where you pay thousands of dollars to get that kind of shit. So what exactly can 2draw do that'll get the techniques across in a mentor system?

I know, we need a live videa system that shows the artist as they're actually working side by side with the image that they're drawing and have the artist say exactly what is going through their minds as they're doing it! And the beginner artist can also be in on the video conference so they can ask questions! Or even have the system handle both artists so that the beginner can draw too! And it'll all be free and hosted on 2draw!

No really, the mentor system idea sounds good, but needs to be discussed I think. Does the beginner artist just collab with the experienced? The collab system we have now doesn't allow for 2 artists to draw at the same time, and getting an applet that does that takes constant bandwidth between both users which probably isn't reasonable, even if an applet was available and integratable with 2draw. Let's not even go into writing a new applet that'll do all that. So what exactly is it a mentor system should do that we can't do right now? I mean, advanced artists can critique beginner stuff right now, and if the beginner actually has versions people can comment on each version as it comes out.

well, you can start a forum of people interested in participating. get two lists going...teachers and students. then, (and not sure what the best way would be) but pair them up. this give a sort of structured opportunity for them to memo back and forth and get started. from there, it could be up to the pair how they continue.

have the teacher look over the student's userboard...finding out consistant strengths and weaknesses...and telling them things to work on. then, have them decide on a project to work on. as the student posts frequent versions, the teacher can see more precisely what the student is doing in addition to the knowledge of what they are trying to do, and they can converse about what they are thinking. either through messenger or memo. this way, there is more concentrated effort on improvement. i mean, let's face it, unless you go out of your way here to ask people for critique, the most you get the majority of the time is, 'nice colors, lineart needs work.' but maybe you have no idea what that means or how to 'work' on it better.

if the more experienced artists know that their -purpose- is critique and improvement, and the students are -looking- for honest critique (not just wow, you're great), then they can be more free to actually help someone.

another idea would be to have lists of people willing to be teachers. have maybe a set program for them to follow if they want...if only to get them started. then, anyone who wishes to have a learning project can maybe memo someone in charge of coordination...that person would make sure the teachers only have one student at a time, and only if they can give that commitment at the time.

i dunno...details are rough, but i think it could be beneficial.

How about an integrated system where an artist can send a request to be mentored by another artist? If it went through, each artists' user profile could show any mentor relationships they have. Basically a different kind of "friends" list like on DA.

I'd be willing to mentor someone, I've done it in the past elsewhere...

A mentor system is amusing and might work. But for it to -really- work effectivley, mentors themselves need to be impartial when it comes to the ultimate style of their apprentice's artwork. I'm kind of against people trying to teach their own styles, as I feel it is the building block for unique and original forms of art (Which is why I now look at 'soon-to-be generic anime artist #25,486' with much distain).

It should be encouraged from the get-go that the artist will only take the advice as a generic, overall, quality enhancment. I think they should experiment with their own style when they are more comfortable with structure/ghosts, anatomy, lightsorces, painting, blacklining, etc, the type of advice mentors should be encouraged to give. I know it's enlightning to copy styles to learn and gain from their experiences, I just don't want someone to come away from a mentor session feeling like they have to draw that way for the rest of their life if they want it to look good :/ I'd advise some sort of guideline inserting the thought into it for people who seek a mentorship.

I like the idea of a mentor system. :P

Miss TRIP, the teenage and young girls are the best artists! (like you) >:D
|XOD|

TRIP: well, those are more concerns for upper-intermediate level artists. Artists who haven't even gotten a solid hold on a single style yet probably shouldn't worry so much. Also, it should go without saying that a mentor will be more biased towards things that reflect their own style. Is that bad? Maybe an artist could have a realism mentor for a while, then switch it up and have a cartoony mentor for a while. In that light I think that style-specific advice could be very useful, assuming one wants to learn the tenets of a particular style. I see value in pursuing several specific styles rather than sticking stubbornly to individualism while on the steep part of the artistic learning curve.

what's the incentive to a mentor to mentor?

mentors themselves need to be impartial when it comes to the ultimate style of their apprentice's artwork

There's no way to ensure that... although I believe anime is a dynamic genre of many styles myself. At this point it seems to me that there are 2 ways to do the mentor system atm. One is to simply volunteer, whoever wants to teach and whoever wants to learn takes it upon themselves to figure out how it's going to work. Simple is best approach, no real structure besides providing a place where people can do it (we already have a place, it's called the forums, the only "issue" is getting it started).

Another way to do it is to make sure some people meet certain quality standards before they teach, although I have no idea what those standards would be. If we came up with a way to insure that the person who wanted to teach can in fact impart some beneficial knowledge then we could flag them somehow and insure that they are going one on one with someone else who wants to learn. We then show the relationship in their profiles or whatever.

The first way is simple, the second way will take more work although there are certainly benefits. Which way appeals to you?

Back to the topic on hand, this certainly will help some people but it's questionable how many people can teach/learn. I mean, there are a lot of people here. Is there a way we can integrate this system of pairing people up on 2draw? One idea might be to pair random "active" people up every week with someone new or something and just get people talking/collaborating in that way.

My mentality has always been focused on the whole picture like that rather than just a simple concept, appologies. I'm just conserned this might lead to some mentors trying to conform their students in ways they shouldnt. But you're right, who's to know that that will happen in the first place, just skeptical thats all :)

I'd also be happy to give advice as well. I can pretty much teach basic charicature structure/ghosts and coloring methods. I will also reveal how one of my styles work if someone wishes to study and learn from it if they desire... But I do wish for them to just pick fruit from the tree to take instead of uprooting the whole trunk and walking away with it :P

Marcello, do you have any plans for this community? Right now it seems to be formless and aimless, but maybe that's how you want it to be.

what's the incentive to a mentor to mentor?

You learn alot when you mentor.

I could teach people how to draw crazy crap, but I don't know If most people would want to learn what I have to teach.
Me got a new computer now and better internet so I'll be here much more now.

Talking about quality, i can only say that i prefer the "quality" of any Kasha´s draw on 2draw than those ones mentioned in this post, oh yes those are great (specially the third one :), detailed and many more features but kinda emotionless (i don´t even know if this is a word), .....just my opinion, we have quality here, only different.
About the mentor issue, i think the collaboration feature and the memo-comment-forum-system in this site it´s the perfect foundation for that (cello is a genius in communication, that´s why this site is like "home"), i mean the problem are not the mentors, the problem is to find somebody willing to learn to draw instead of somebody winning for not know how to draw.

I am not very smart to post anything more than silly jokes most of the times, but if I were smarter I would post exactly what zep posted. I agree 100%! Most people on 2draw might not use super advanced paint programs or 7000x7000 canvas sizes or expensive computers, but some people's artwork is absolutely amazing. >:D
|XOD|

Yes, perhaps a better word for it is 'refinement' instead of 'quality'. I dunno. I guess with all the work they put into their pictures they could lose some emotive aspects, so if one is more inclined toward expressionism there wouldn't be anything holding 2draw back, with the possible exception that stuff can take more time to do in the applets than it would in Photoshop or Painter (assuming one was already familiar with those programs).

Collaboration and other features certainly allow for a high degree of mentorship already, but since most people are sheepish maybe a specific system for mentoring would help? I dunno. I've talked to a few people and been surprised at how I must come across sometimes, as being elitist or whatever, when I really enjoy helping people out. Maybe if we had a forum where artists could post saying they're willing to give specific critiques or generally mentor, that would help out most. In other words, maybe the beginner or intermediate level artists are usually too intimidated to ask for help from the more advanced artists, so having a forum where they could see who wanted to help would do the trick.

Or, inversely, we could have a forum where artist could post who geniunely want honest criticism and advice about their work. That could be tricky though, as it's easy to say "oh, I need help with this" without really wanting to go through the trouble of taking people's advice. Maybe if we put a warning up? But then again, maybe some of them are already pretty intimidated. Hmm hmm hmm.

Regardless, I'd like to make it clear that I will critique any picture that I'm personally asked to. I think most of the other artists here would as well.

in my opinion, for any mentor system to be more effective than what goes on now, it would have to be at least semi structured, and focused on one-on-one...the most benefit for the student would be the mentor taking a close look at their strengths and weaknesses past and present...taking some time looking at their work beyond that picture, and then helping them out.

and if i understood you correctly zep, you mean the hard part would be finding people willing to say, yes i have much to learn...hm...i dunno if that would happen. because by being a student, you're not saying you stink :p youre just saying you would like to learn more...

and i dont think there should be any tests or heavy standards for being a mentor...i'm sure most could teach people something...depending on the level...like, intermediate people could teach beginner, and advanced teach intermediate...the idea behind having someone coordinate would be to tactfully pair people up in a most helpful way...if it was done openly on a forum you might have people saying oh i want to mentor!! and then inevitably you'd have a hurtful remark from another person saying they suck, etc. so if all is done through a coordinator, there could be tasteful placement on both ends. not to mention easier to keep the mentors from being flooded with too many student requests...

as far as incentive to mentor...i think derrick hit it right on the nose...you can learn a lot by teaching others...and also, i can think of a lot of people here who would probably donate some time to this just because it could be fun...and cmon now, admit it...how many times have you wanted to sit down with someone on the beginner board and say, 'listen, it doesnt take much...but if you just did this, this, this, this, and this, your pictures would be much nicer?' i think it would be a great opportunity to build a good sense of community, and (if done right) could be a way to improve the overall quality, creativity, and exchange of ideas on this site...

*hopes that is coherant*

Sign me up for zep's class.

I think zep definetly makes a good point. All I know how to say the intent of the topic though is "how do we get more stuff at that level of finish" or something. Maybe a better way to explain it is to get people imagining what images they would want physically printed and framed at 20"x20" or whatever, what's worth it? Before I go more into the mentor system, I'd like to thank all the posts on the thread so far, this is going great as far as figuring out what people want/like/dislike/feel.

So now into the mentor system part. I guess we really wouldn't need to qualify mentors/students per se, and we could certainly have a disclaimer saying that whoever signs up is going to accept the responsibilities. Saying all that is all well and fine, the question is do we want a 3rd party (moderators for instance) enforcing somehow that "something" is getting done? Do we need to give consequences/incentives for people to learn/teach (I mean something arbitrary of course, points given/taken, special profile tag or something, special display for mentor pictures)?

Like what zep said eloquently, how do we get people who say they want to learn to actually learn? What about creating a Mentor board? Again the question here is how far do we want to take it in terms of having a whole "system" set up. Is this going to be another one of those things that dies out like the theme board?

Things I think are important for the mentor thing that's been stated by others:
-Mentor/Student need to sincerely agree to do this (duh... although this could be something that prevents anything from happening)
-Mentor needs to review student's past work
-Mentor needs to discuss (perceived?) strengths/weaknesses with student
-Mentor needs to critique something student is working on, or go one-to-one on a picture to help student figure out something
-Student needs to learn something
-Mentor needs to learn something for that matter

Without those things I think nothing is really going to happen. Actually like Zach said perhaps beginners are going to be too intimidated to ask as much from another other on the site. Which things do you think you can do right now with 2draw as is, what things do you think need something from 2draw to make it work?

Why is everyone talking about a mythical greek bull???


Hahaha....mentor

Hunnie, that's a Minotaur ;)

A Minotaur could be the mascot for the Mentor board.
Could have a pic of a Minotaur showing someone how to git through a maze.

A Mentor Board sounds like a good Idea.
It mite take a while for people to get use to a mentor setup, but It should work It's self out over time.

I thought the minotaur ate the people in the maze... >_>


but yeah, go mentor board. :3

I don't know about this mentor idea... It's going to require a signifigant amount of effort and time from both the mentor and student to make this work, which i think most users here on 2Draw already lack as it is, maybe not effort, but deffinitly time.

With summer around the corner (for me anyways, next week is the last) would people have more time to get things up and running?

Mentor was Odysseus's trusted friend and teacher of his son Telemachus. >:)
|XOD|

It doesn't matter about the time spent mentoring. No one said anywhere that a mentor/student thing has to be done in a week or whatever, just whenever the people feel like doing stuff/critiquing. What's the difference between that and users doing normal stuff here on 2draw? Doesn't seem like it'd take anything extra at all to me.