Despite what it may seem like, I am not personally a heavy advocate of rules and censorship, but since this has been brought to my attention as a possible problem, I thought I would get input from the rest of you.

As you may or may not know, the official guidelines for how to rate an image specify that basically any kind of nudity does not qualify under the 13+ rating. The line between 13+ and 18+ has been blurred when it comes to simple artistic nudity, and the rule not really enforced... People are submitting drawings that technically should fall under the 18+ rating as 13+, and no one bothers to enforce it (I so far haven't really cared). The whole "18+" name has been tarnished as a taboo in society, so I can understand why people don't want to submit work under that rating. It also means more work for people to view the images.

From the view of an art site, there isn't anything wrong with artist nudity, but people browsing the site in a public place (school, library, etc.) may be misunderstood or may even offend others. Again, personally, I don't really give a damn, considering that I find some of the ub3r crappy pokemon art more offensive than nudity, but it could be a problem.

So basically I'm just trying to get an opinion on what people think here. I will go on the assumption that the "older" users don't give a damn, but feel free to voice your opinions.

I'm reluctant to add another rating (such as 15+ or something) intended for artistic nudity but not quite "pornography," to use a crude term. ;-) But it's certainly doable if it appears to be the best solution.

I find some of the ub3r crappy pokemon art more offensive

lmao

I think you have it set up just fine, Cello. If people would actually READ the given link... it's pretty much straightforward as to what goes under what rating.
"13+
PG-13 rating, minimum violence, minimum blood. No excessive spewing guts, no nudity or sexual content. Implied nudity/skin is allowed in this case, within reason."
"18+
Nudity, sexual content (not hardcore), guts/blood. But not super grotesque and offensive."

Full nudity, whatever it may be (artistic, porn, etc) goes under 18+. It all boils down to a judgement call. I don't think another rating is necessary. The more ratings... the more complicated the issue will get, imo. :) Just my two cents. (psst.. don't change it :P)

Personally, I'm not for open censorship for adults either. However, there are a great number of young people here who should not be seeing that kind of thing. You have moderators who are charged with policing offenses, and I don't think it would be too hard for them to rerate some of the pictures to keep them from the children. I don't understand the need for that stuff to be drawn, but, I suppose some of the ones doing it feel they have their reasons. I just don't think many of the younger crowd should be subjected to it, whatever the reason.

Umm.. I have been seening a lot of 13+ things with uncovered boobies.... I really think those should be rated 18+.. I was scrolling, and my dad was watching, and he saw a glimps of it and told me to go back up.. and he saw it.. I kinda go in trouble.. I really don't want to be banned from the site.. Oo; I started blocking 13+, and relized that there is that robot thing in advanced and it has boobs.. and it is rated everyone... -sigh- I don't know what I am talking about, don't listen to meh.

Actually, kenshin is right...many pics are rated wrongfully, and when small people (such as me) are constantly being monitored by our parents, we run the risk of being banned from the site...i think a 15+ would be a great idea.

Whether or not people post them under the proper rating is a different issue.

Edit: I agree with davinci about it being the responsibility of the mods to adjust the rating when someone fails to properly rate their art. :)

when people can't decide wether or not to post it on either 13+ or 18+, sometimes they post it on 13+ when it should have been posted on 18+

my dad does'nt care if I see that kind of stuff because he knows I hate it, and I do.But at my mom's it a whole diferent story, say if I'm browsing the bords, and my mom's watching, and I come across something rated 13+...... and it's porny-like, she'll hang me out to dry with the luandry, plus she put a tracker on my computer. So I think 15+ is a great idea.... it's not exactly 13+ but not all the way to 18+.

Yes, I've also noticed quite a few pictures with boobies... uncovered.. not right... I don't think it's right for them to be rated only 13+ Oo;; .. Not to mention The Maze.. -cough- BUT that's beside the point. XD

I dunno if you kids should even be on this site, frankly. You are all 13+ right? Because I have to ban anyone under 13 because of COPPA...

Maybe its just me, but most of the nudity, sexually explicit, and violent drawings are done by people under 18. I don't think changing the ratings is the answer at all.
Besides, if you're old enough to use this site you should be able to explain to your parents that this is an open site, you have absolutely no control over what gets posted here and it is an art site. Art does and always will include nudity, sexuality, and violence as it is a reflection of our society. If you are not allowed to view images of this nature, you should also be forbidden to ever open an art history book.

I once had one of my drawings deleted because it was more extreme than extreme. This was my most proud day in 2draw. >;)
P.S. If you are a kid, you can do naughty things like watching the 18+ drawings without telling your dad or mom and they might never find out. Bad kids are better than good kids! Be a bad kid! >:D
|XOD|

hahahaha :D

XDD Hahahahahaha, XOD. XD Well, I am 12.. so.. >.>

basically you're asking to be banned?

Not really.. but, it's best to be honest, so banned me if you want.. ;;

Unless people are going to get punished ie moderated for rating their images wrongly, adding a 15+ thing might not help. Sometimes people just don't read the ratings at all and assume for themselves what the ratings mean. Also, it can be a problem for me (not on this site in general though) since some stuff could be not safe for work. If it is a problem, I think it may just be easier for us to crack down on it rather than adding a new category and having to moderate it eventually anyway.

I think if the artist didn't put the correct rating on it, the moderators should change it. I'm not sure we need a 15+ rating. What would it cover? I have my preferences set to block both 13+ and 18+.

I once drew a picture of a chick wearing an extremely tight cat suit, I rated it 13+, and I got docked a point when a mod turned it to 18+. I'm pretty sure that's the only point I've ever lost due to breaking a rule or something. I didn't have a problem with it, I thought "Well, you can't even see her face, that's fair enough."

Personally, I don't think all nudity should be 18+. Some of it is just apart of the picture. On the other hand, a picture that's nothing but a chick flashing the world? Sorry, 18+. Seriously, the boobs are the point of the picture there. Rating it 13+ is cheating and screams "I just want comments."

I don't mind censorship for ages or whatever, it's not a big deal. As with piercings/tats, if it's worth it, you'll wait. But it's true that things that are 18+ are taboo, and it's unfair. In my opinion, people should be able to look beyond the subject and at the rendering and art instead. But that's off subject.

I don't think that 15+ would help anything, and children who are getting in trouble for viewing 18+ images shouldn't be surprised. As to a solution...perhaps just enforce it more, like method3 said. I'll agree with that. ^_^

Okay, kiddos, if you are young enough to get into trouble for viewing anything here, set your privacy settings not to be able to view anything with a restriction at all, then you'll be fine. Simple nudity in art is in no way pornographic, and I don't think a 5 year old should be prevented from seeing it. Michelangelo's David would be kind of hard to cover up with a tarp, don't you think? Anything that implies violence or sexual content should probably be rated, but we all know the kids are going to look at it when no one's around to monitor them, so... I wouldn't worry too much about any of it.

edit: As a matter of fact, age sometimes doesn't have anything to do with it. I was asked by someone who I believe to be in their 50's to rate one of my drawings, as they did not want to have to see it, which I just (reluctantly, but I did) deleted from my gallery today, as I really don't want to offend anyone.

I think there should be a separate rating for pokemon related drawings.
|XOD|

Xod, you are so right. XD

Add neopets to it too, Xod :P

I agree with DBA on the difference on simple nuduty art is no way pornografic, my stepmom is doing a corse about art history right now were she has to draw out the images for memory, she's seen some of the stuff on here that looks like images in her artbook. I would like to see more of that than porn. I still think there should be a 15+ though.

P.S. what's wrong with drawing neopets and pokemon?

Maybe there should be a special boobies rating.

yes there should be

been wondering that myself, actually. ive re-rated a few drawings but people usually get pissed. i agree with mischa, special boobies rating.

imho im all for nudity. yay boobs and all that. very little offends me. i wouldnt wanna miss all the good art thats 18+ either. cello, maybe you can put in content ratings or whatever. movies get:

BL Blood Letting
CL Coarse Language
CSM Controversial Subject Matter
EN Explicit Nudity
EV Extreme Violence
FRS Frightening Scenes
FS Fighting Scenes
GS Gory Scenes
GSC Graphic Sexual Content
LW Language Warning
MSM Mature Subject Matter
MT Mature Theme
NS Nude Scenes
OL Offensive Language
OLT Offensive Language Throughout
SC Sexual Content
VS Violent Scenes

or something similar. less complicated probably. like a few check-boxes for explicit nudity, artistic nudity and all that. though someitmes its debateable and not really either, but still might prevent some issues?

Very good idea, Mazi.

My point is that it doesn't matter what your opinion on what the ratings should be even though I agree and could care less about ratings as they apply to art, since I use the ratings to restrict what is shown by default when I am at work/school. Then the only thing that matters is whether or not a client thinks what I see is appropriate, which in turn could generate a complaint or something equally annoying. That being said, I have never had a problem with restricting everything above 13+, 18+ has always been good enough for me.

If you didn't read the original post, 15+ would incorporate artistic nudity, and again imo would only be useful if somehow people read the ratings and set their drawings appropriately. I also have not been moderating ratings at all, so if something needs to be done about it then I'm all for r0x0rzing some people for ratings.

Maybe there could be an auto-rate system? Like mazi's idea, you check a few boxes and a system rates it for you. But that probably wouldn't be a good solution... but i agree with the special boobies rating

I think Mazi's solution is the best out of all. Perhaps we should abandon the age ratings and go with actual content ratings.

sounds like a pain in the ass though. but if you want that, come up with a list.

So who's bitching anyway?

nobody's bitching, but I did bring up the concern. During school hours, I have a convenient time to view 2draw under my school account. Just friday I nearly got my account banned/written up (and for the record, I viewed 2draw as a newcomer which has a default of viewing 13+.) I currently hold nothing against artistic nudity and the like, and I can easily decide/have already decided not to view 2draw during school hours anymore, but this issue possibly applies to more than just me.

I think method's solution is the best. Why make everything more complicated with MORE stuff to check off/tick etc. I think it all boils down to moderating what we have already. I honestly believe that 13+ and 18+ suffice.

Perhaps Mazi's list can be shortend. Perhaps to something like

N-for nudity of any sort, pornographic or not
V-for violence, be it just some blood or something extremely graphic
L-for swearing or offensive dialogue
O- for something not included above. [quote]

How does this sound?

I almost don't want to say this because I hate restrictions, but the point system here allows for quite a bit of.....how do I put this? It's easy to say "So take the points, who cares? I have plenty." If the point system were set up so that you didn't get so many, regardless of how much you drew, then you might be a little more careful about what you did. I don't know if anyone has ever been banned here, let alone for losing points but my point is, there is no real incentive for "following the rules" if ya know what I mean.

Err.. if that is indeed open for discussion here, then I'd agree with you half way, Axil. See, I don't like how people are able to say "So take the points, who cares? I have plenty." Yet I do like how the system doesn't ruin 2draw's purpose. I wouldn't like it if people are constantly worrying/complaining about points and not enjoying themselves here.

Yeah, I agree. Some people just don't seem to read the rules properly lol. But I think you should just stick to the usual rating. People should be wise enough to know that any nudity should be 18+.

Any nudity should be 18+?????
The human body is nothing to be ashamed or afraid of. everyone has one, and they are all relatively the same.
Why is it violence is accepted and can be seen by anyone old enough to turn on a tv but if someone happens to flash a little flesh everyone loses their mind. Nightly news can show hundreds of people being massacred by bombs and guns but janet jackson flashed her titty for 2 secs and had to make a televised apology???? What a fucked up backward society we live it....
Babies hang out all the time naked...shame of the body is not something we are born with, its something we're taught.
damn puritans!!!

DUDE! It has nothing to do with peoples opinions. If I had it my way everyone would be hunky dory with nudity everywhere at all times. Sex is of the good. Not sure if it really is a law but it's pretty much assumed that people who aren't 18 can't look at nudity.

It shouldn't be such a big deal!! I don't care if I have to rate a pic 18+, because I don't really want kids looking at the nudies anyways. Artistic nudity, sure, it's different, but it is still inappropriate to SOME people. Mostly in public places. Not everybody gets to look at 2draw in the privacy of their own home.

The problem isn't the ratings but the importance people place on the ratings. When I go to a movie I don't use the rating as a deciding factor as to whether or not I'll go see it. I do use it as a deciding factor on whether or not I'll let my 11 year old sister see it, however. The rules are in place for a reason, and that reason is uptight people and children. You can't have a public site without considering that.

Blah. I need to stfu. ^_^ </rant>

While I agree with people's opinions here for the most part about nudity not being an issue, I would like people to review what I said in my previous post and also to refer to Armando's post about issues in public places. It doesn't matter what we think, it's what other people outside of our "control" that is a problem. The question is how we handle ratings here at 2draw so that it inconveniences the artist as little as possible and at the same time keeping people who view 2draw in a public place out of trouble. As I've said before, my vote goes with more moderation since our rating system is fairly simple now, but if it is easier to do content ratings for people, can we keep the number of ratings reasonable? Adult content (any sort of nudity or sexual content), Adult language, Violence, maybe an Extreme rating for Xod seems enough for me. =P

Keloco, I think that the "18+" label is only to indicate nudity and sex. It is also there so Marcello will not have any trouble with the american law, since the server is american, if I am correct. It does not have anything to do with actual age. Laws vary from country to country and opinions and tastes vary from person to person. Marcello probably wants his board to be open for people with different opinions and tastes, like people who enjoy nudity and people who feel bad if they are forced to see it. The 18+ could also be a red circle with an "X" It does not matter.
Besides, on other drawing boards who are dedicated for mature only artwork, many of the people who draw there are still teenagers.

breac: that list wasnt what i was suggesting, thats the list for movies :)

i just meant that if you know its 18+ and you dont mind artistic/partial nudity but dont like violence, you can choose to look at it or not.

if its an image of a giant [explitive deleted] and its checked for nudity its likely you wont view it in public, whereas its only checked for mild violence, you might. though that all brings in a debate over fuzzy terms. eg. what is considered violent/naked. i mean extremely tight clothing is close to naked and looks almost the same in some art. stuff like that.

I agree with kejoco.. I really don't care if I see that stuff.. it doesn't offend me one bit.. It is just my parents...

kenshin: didja listen to method3 at all? its not about personal opinion, its about a giant community decision. the majority of people dont care about nudity, but thats not the point.

Yes. Yes. W00T 3% LOADED! What did you say?

And if kids who visit 2draw try to view 18+ drawings, I will spank them. >;)
|XOD|

My parents understand me, and I know and THEY know they aren't going to sheild me from sstuff like that all my life. Basically everyone here is a teen or adult so, I can't see why nudity is a big deal, it's natural and I don't know why we should hide it. *takes off pants* :p

nightmare, unfortunately, as I pointed out above, many people are under 13, so not even teenagers.

Yes, Marcello that is rather unfortunate that we have whiny 10,11,12 year olds on this site. I'm not even a teen (12.4) and I'm mature enough to handle this conversation.

that's still not the point. =0P

comeon there are little kids on this site u know.............................XOD i hope all ur drawings are 18+...and what about extreme drawings? i never seen one. ( probly for the best)

I know that was'nt the point, I was being sarcastic. Also friend, if you want to see Extreme rated drawings, just go to XOD's user board...I'm still having nightmares of that naked fat pig/blob he drew..thanks XOD >:)

You are welcome. >:)
|XOD|

Í think it's still just inappropriate. The nudity drawings... if they were uncensored... because censorship is important (of course those in their sick minds would disagree but whatever). It's like rating movies. If you're only 12, I don't think you really wanna see those R rated ones lol.

Cordelia, I watch those scarey hide-your-eyes rated R movies, and I think they're the only movies with any real storyline....

Hey, lets not turn this into a movie rating board! um....

Good point Ty, *thinks to self, STAY ON TOPIC, YOU MORON* I really don't see why nudity is sucha big deal, what virgin eyes too inocent?

I think content ratings are better, and it would be more convenient because people could customize what they want and do not want to see. Like, let's say you don't want to see any nudity, so you check that off, but not violence and/or gore. so if the picture would fall into the 18+ category, you could still see it because it contains none of the things you specified not to see.

I think a ratings list could go like this:

V-Mild violence
SV-Strong violence
G-Blood and gore
L-Language
AN-Artistic nudity
N-Nudity (nothing sexual)
SN-Sexual Nudity

etc.

I think that is very good, Gothis_Otaku. Those are perfect!

That's a good Idea! I like it!

Yeah, but how are people going to know what the letters stand for? They will have to look at some documentation stating what the abrevs. stand for, and well... like the problems with other ratings...people just dont read rules.

Well, maybe the moderators should be the ones to decide and change the rating if anyone rates their picture 'Everyone' or '13+' if it's nudity. And Nightmare, some people don't want to get "nightmares" because of it. OK? Just accept that. Sometimes this site doesn't censor everything. geez.

If these ratings systems are implimented, it will not be a series of checkboxes with various initials. Even I'm not going to remember what G, V, SV, L, AN, N, SN, etc. stands for. Do you think it is necessary to have both violence/strong violence or artistic nudity/nudity/sexual nudity as seperate ratings? How specific can you be in defining the differences between the categories? If this is not extremely easy and intuitive (for a 10 year old to understand, literally), I don't think there should be separate content ratings: violence or nudity should be enough.

I think we should have seperate ratings for all the different kinds of nudity...boobie nudity, male boobie nudity, ass nudity, genital nudity, nudity with the expressed intent on copulation, gettin it on nudity, animal nudity, nudity nudity.
This way there can be no mistakes, no one offended and everyone will live happily ever after.........nude.

I agree with method3. Why make it complicated? Nudity is nudity and violence is violence.. no need for various degrees.

lmao, kejo! ... and I STILL agree with the first suggestion by Method. k that will be all.

I like Mazi's idea but why not just have a lil check box you click before submitting that puts out a warning for all of the above. Like "NSFW" Not sutible for work? It would be kinda easier that way.

Oh yeah. I really don't think there is a need for "artist nudity". Regardless, it's nudity and when your at work or school some people who don't have the artistic point of view (unlike us) would be offended and thus lead to problems.

You should also have an OMG (oh my guts) rating for extreme drawings.
|XOD|

or just XOD.

lmao

Nudity: 13+ or 18+?

For 13+: I think it's all good if it's nude, fucking, whatever, as long as it's loving and non violent.
For 18+: Anything with older people being nude, fucking and what not, or violent fucking.
For 15-: Anime drawings and drawings made by "grade school doodlers", I would definitely use this blocker!

And in what world would 'violent fucking' be considerd violent?

2Draw

XOD could mean extreme overdose as initials.
|XOD|

I think I like Kasha's idea, one single checkbox that says whether you should be checking around you first before you click on the link. On the other hand, I still would like an idea as to what exactly I'm going to be seeing, you know so I don't click on "Strawberries" and stand up and yell "OMG it's an anime furry getting screwed by a horse eating strawberries!". Because you know, that could happen and then I would be very very sad... and maybe happy at the same time. Maybe having NSFW along with an extreme XOD warning would be enough.

Anyway, I am undecided at this point whether things should be changed at all right now.

A furry getting screwed by a horse eating strawberries, hehehe. When is someone going to draw this?

different degrees of violence/nudity would be useful. I don't mind a little blood, but if there's a super gory pic with decapitated people and spewing guts...well...

about the initials, how about none? just put what the rating means. no memorizing necessary. Maybe use the initials as the general info on the display of the pic instead of the 18+, 13+ etc.

more like how about things stay the same and moderators just properly moderate ratings. All these new ideas will need moderation too(and more work for marcello), and if not, then we'll just be walking in circles.

that's an idea :)

best idea yet. less work for me is always better. ;)

I agree as well. I think that was the first idea too, eh?

I don't think another rating is necessary. The more ratings... the more complicated the issue will get, imo. :) (psst.. don't change it :P)

I am not in debate over true art, when it is, just that! However, I have openly commented and do take offense to tasteless scrawls. Such as the "so called" artwork drawn on what was coined and to be in fun, "cherry week". They know who they are. I was horrified and had my grandchildren next to me. That was not artwork, furthermore it was viewed by young people of this site, and the only ones that really made any positive commenting were, no offense, but of course, males.

I agree with Davinci. There needs to be some policing. Also, removal, (with a heavy penalty) of artwork that offers nothing more then outright pornography! This will keep you from having to create another rating, so those that don't understand the ratings anyway, will not have to worry.

Furthermore, the young boys such as NIGHTMARE and Ty854 amoung others, have no business looking at someones idea of what they think a vagina looks like!, or any other bodypart. If they're really interested, let them crack open a book on the anatomy or read national geographics, or go into daddy's closet and find his playboys!

I really thought this site was in good taste, had more class, a safe place for all, and offered more then the normal riffraff you find elsewhere. Please, don't become the typical site that we can visit if we're looking for a place to get our rocks off! There are plenty of those sites and I don't want em!

Finally, I am certain that NIGHTMARES parents have no idea what he is doing online. They probably put some trust in him, which is obviously a mistake and they need to start monitoring his habits. He's nothing more then a little punk with a filthy mouth and typical adolescent behaviour.

If you impose that much conservative censorship, the site would be completely stale. Afterall, that's what the ratings are for, if you don't want to see that kind of picture, don't click something rated 18+. =P

First of all, this site is in good taste, it has "class", and it is a "safe place" for all. It has the features that will allow you to look at all the pictures that you're looking for and hide the ones you don't so you can avoid them. You're opinions border on what I like to call "Nazi-ism" though and I hope to never see imposed on the rest of us. Sorry, but freedom of speech, and as such freedom of art especially, should be respected here and on the net where things should be unrestricted as they are. Actually, I'm not sorry really. 2draw isn't a place for kiddies (especially not under the age of 13) and so perhaps your grandchildren shouldn't have been looking at the site.

Secondly, "the only ones that really made any positive commenting were... of course, males". I fail to see the logic behind this, since it seems like the opposite would be true. Wouldn't males be more prone to negative comments concerning "cherries"? Anyway, I didn't follow those comments so I wouldn't know I guess.

This does bring up a good point however with the "ambiguity" of the cherry week stuff, there is borderline "implied" sexuality stuff that I guess some people will be offended by. If we had a new rating system it would be good to add that under the sexuality/violence catogories, implied content falls under the ratings as well.

Now the real question here is: 'How much wood could a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood'? No, really I can't figure it out...

For people who want to see only family suitable artwork, more ratings will offer them no additional protection, since more ratings would just separate different types of adult artwork. Unless there was a rating even more restricting than "Everyone". Something like a "Pleasantville" rating? >;)
|XOD|

A wood chuck would chuck, as much wood as a wood chuck could chuck, if a wood chuck could chuck wood. Happy now?

rofl @ Pleasantville.

I don't know what all the debate is about. The site allows one to set for what pictures you see, or don't see. There are rules and ratings. If the mods police the really trash stuff and correct the ratings used, and those who don't want to see them set their site up that way.. then everybody is happy. It's not great for the kids to see that stuff, but, after all,it's their parents' responsibility to police their online habits and access, not ours. Now..what else can we set up an endless "thread bitch" about?

How about an Iraq debate, davincipoppalag? <:)
|XOD|

Let's talk polictics!!! >:)

i agree with davinci on this one. they gave birth to them, so the parents should look after them...i mean, you're not getting paid to baby sit them nor were you asked to so yeah!!

I'm curious. Is there a language filter?

Edit: I'll take that as a "no".