Very cool, Zack, the color is great. The lips seem off, but other than that I like it!

he looks really mean... is this your alter ego? :)

The lips aren't my fault, man. Not everyone is as talented at drawing out of their imagination as Cloxboy or TheCrimsonKing. Whine whine whine.

p.s. THE SATIRE BANDIT STRIKES AGAIN! :0

oh gag... :)

The thing is...Zack is pretty friggin good, I think we can all agree on that.

Edit: Yeah...typos and such.

hell yeah, I'll go along with that... I'm also assuming that if he wasn't spending so much time enhancing his brain power in other areas, that his imagination would be kicking ass all over this site.

Yep he is. See..he has telent.

Hmm, I dunno. I think he's done some pretty cool stuff. I think it's really just a matter of opinion.

Thanks guys and gal. :P Satire aside, my point is that my skill in drawing without references improved with practice. I'm not saying everyone is capable of drawing good unreferenced pictures, but I think more people are capable than they think.

agreed.

Point granted.

I take that 'uncalled for dig' about the whining as directed towards me, since that was about what 'I' said. Listen here, you little shit...you think you are the only one who should be right about something and if someone has a different opinion on it they're whining? What was your point, after all with this pic? That's what I was saying in the first place...'not every one is capable'... :P
You used to be pretty down to earth when you first came back here...take your head out of the clouds and come back down here.

I stick with references cause my lineart isn't as good here as with my trusty mechanical pencil and that I don't care to get as good with lineart here with my mouse (I'd rather use my time perfecting my pencil skills in that case). One could argue that it doesn't help me to do something I know I'm capable of, but I mostly draw here for fun, and if I'm learning things, I'm learning face structures which are helping me out all around. In any case, I know I'm capable of imaginative pieces, but I just choose not to show them here in 'digital' form (for the most part).

-Btw, it's not very 'mature' of you to diss on people's views like this, just so you know :) (especially the choice of words there).

Chill out Laurael, sheesh. As well, I hardly think Zack is a little shit, if you're going to insult him, at least call him a big shit, I think he deserves that much. Take a nap or something.

What-ever.

I thought it was rather witty. I mean...I can't draw on here because my stylus is the wrong color for my wardrobe, or else...believe me I promise I'm actually amazing. And since I admitted how much I suck on here and pointed out the flaws in my pictures before you can, it totally defaults that I know what I'm doing. I obviously don't need any constructive critisism. Or, on the other hand, please give it, and maybe what you say will be the magical tool that I need to suddenly draw the way I've always wanted, and not have to go through the endless practicing and lack of self satisfaction. I'll stop now. I don't like drama. :P

I think it's sad how it's so hard we can't just leave this at "you have the freedom to draw whatever you want." What's the big deal? Are we hurting people by not drawing out of our imaginations? Is someone losing their life because of it? If so, tell me, and maybe I will actually draw from my imagination. If you wanna check out some of my creative work, check out the forums where I actually posted some. Is that not creative enough for you? Sucks. I didn't say what I said above as an excuse, it's just a choice of what I enjoy drawing here. There's definitely nothing wrong with that. No one should be forced to draw things for 'your' viewing pleasure. Again, 2draw is not an art course. You can choose to learn new things if you want by accepting constructive criticism, but I think we should also have the freedom to draw what we want and not be put down for it.

Seriously though, would someone be a pal and point out what the big deal is behind 'only drawing from references?'

All that stuff aside, nice picture. You're good at creating pictures with so few colors.

Well I think it's a big deal since I know that if I spent enough time and put enough edits in I could copy a photo perfectly, too. But drawing what I actually want from my mind, something that there isn't a photo-reference for or something, and having it come out perfectly is actually satisfying. Therefore, since the former is easy if time consuming it makes it unimpressive compared to the decent ass things that come from imagination. It's like...okay, you can use the tools. Good. Now create something.

Okay, but what if someone just wants to have fun with say fanart or just copying exact images from photos? Does that give you a right to tell them what to do? Is it forbidden for someone to have fun replicating photos here? I think the answer is no. Of course replicating only has so much benefit to it, but it can be fun. What's wrong with having fun if it isn't hurting someone? Not everyone comes here to learn how to create from the mind, okay? Let us be.

I too am not a fan of anime drawings (like ocertain others here) but do you see me ordering them to draw something else? No, nor do I want to. You don't have to be ruining peoples' fun.

Here's my biggest question to wrap this into one. "Is it forbidden to have fun?"

I don't recall a time when I have ever told somebody to or not to do something, especially if it was merely because I believed a certain way. I certainly didn't in that last post. You need to stop taking my blunt opinion as a personal attack against your differing opinion.

NOBODY said that you shouldn't, much less can't draw anything else. Nobody's ordering anybody to draw anything else. All I was saying is that I am less impressed with drawings that are merely copies of photographs. It's not like I'm denying that it takes a measure of talent/practice to be able to do it well. Blow things out of proportion much?

--Hey come on, just because somebody doesn't want to do it your way doesn't mean they're against your way, alright? God damn. Nobody has said anything's "forbidden" or whatever. Jeez, you act like we're all realism haters up in here.

"Good. Now create something."
Hmm, I suppose that isn't an order?

So what is the problem if you "aren't" telling us to be drawing stuff outside of realism? You can always just say "well maybe if you try drawing from the imagination, that might make for good practice too." You don't need to shove it down our throats so that we'd get the picture. I'm very much aware that photo replication isn't gonna get me far, thanks (as do others I'm sure). All we're doing is having fun, okay? Is that too much to ask for?

I said "It's like...okay, you can use the tools. Good. Now create something." It was meant as a suggestion. A nudge. Whatever. Besides I'm not shoving anything down your throat, jeez, I'm glad you and me can have these different opinions, and I'm glad you have a different opinion in case I'm wrong, I have something to compare it to, or at least there's a variety of ways of looking at things.

I don't really care if you like my opinion or not, but I'd hope it isn't that large of a reflection on me. It's just an art preference! I like the color red best! It doesn't mean I think you should never use any color but red! God damn if anybody's rootin for just having fun it's me! I never get involved in these things, I dunno what I was thinkin! Silly serious Gigandas, listen to the song Vienna by Billy Joel, and take a freakin breather.

So....what exactly is your point then?

Just expressing an opinion in response to a question posed.

Alright, so you aren't exactly saying what Alex and Zack were saying.

... you think you are the only one who should be right about something and if someone has a different opinion on it they're whining?

No, I believed you were making excuses. You aren't a whiny person, and I apologize for implying that. People are welcome to disagree with me. If you don't want me to try pointing out flaws in your argument, though, just ignore me.

Is someone losing their life because of it? If so, tell me, and maybe I will actually draw from my imagination.

What a flair for the dramatic. Why does something have to kill people for it to be bad?

If you wanna check out some of my creative work, check out the forums where I actually posted some. Is that not creative enough for you? Sucks.

You're being pretty defensive of your own gallery considering that no one has even mentioned it. :P

No one should be forced to draw things for 'your' viewing pleasure.

I'm not forcing people to do anything. I'm advocating non-referenced work.

You make me wonder if you're taking a minor in Straw-Man Construction, Gig.

I dunno, I'm not them, lol. I said what I gathered from it. *shrug*

"What a flair for the dramatic. Why does something have to kill people for it to be bad?"
Oh gee, I'm sorry my quick examples aren't as "superior" as yours. It's an example, get over it.

"You're being pretty defensive of your own gallery considering that no one has even mentioned it. :P"
Well let's see here....you did confirm that this whole debate was directed at people who draw from nothing but references, did you not?

"I'm not forcing people to do anything. I'm advocating non-referenced work."
The way you belittled what we do, it sure sounded like it. Once there's a put down for what someone does for fun, that's suggesting something.

"You make me wonder if you're taking a minor in Straw-Man Construction, Gig."
And again, another one to add to your trophy case eh, Zack? I hope you know how immature you look by making these mocking comments. Does it make you feel superior to me, Zack :P?

I dont get it.. why do you draw or say some thing that you KNOW will get people angry than get all upset when they do?? People will draw what they want and if you dont like it then don't look at it.. There is no point in telling them off for doing something a certain way. As i said before in Alex's picture references are used in everything... So just let people learn (or have fun) how ever they want. >_>

"why do you draw or say some thing that you KNOW will get people angry than get all upset when they do??"
I wouldn't be surprised if that's the whole idea behind all this...really.

If people can draw anything they want, they can say anything they want.

Yes, but if you draw or say something to offend people then expect a comeback and dont be all angry when you get one is all i'm saying.

lol, that's a great picture you gave me there, Menyway :).
"Hey man, what you do isn't impressive and I can even go as far as to say it sucks!"
"DOES IT MAKE YOU FEEL GOOD TO PUT ME DOWN???"
"Ch-chill out man, I only attempted to put you below my superior status. Just take it and be a man."

his nose is kinda flat. i do like his shiny bald head however.

Thank you for that apology, Zack. *bows down to flawless man and then backs away, taking what I can get*... o.0

hehehehe good one Gig!! ^_^

I have to admit, those quote boxes are getting annoying. I'll steal your method instead, Gig.

"why do you draw or say some thing that you KNOW will get people angry than get all upset when they do??" - Menyway
I'm not upset. I may be teasing some people (like Gig, clearly) but I'm not upset. They have a right to be angry with me, as I've been pretty mocking in my posts.

"As i said before in Alex's picture references are used in everything" -Menyway
Yes, but the degree to which they are altered differs. You can't say that the same amount of brain power is involved in copying a photograph as there is in drawing a new design for a car.

edit: Alright, I've been disruptive enough. I wan't argue with you about this here anymore Gig, but we can move to memos if you want.
edit2: Laurael, I'm sorry I pissed you off like that. I was mostly just teasing, but it was pretty rude of me.

Haha, I just so predicted you were gonna nitpick at the quote box thing :P.
I dunno how to do the yellow quote box thing anyway, so I guess you have to deal with it.
Don't say you're teasing me. This isn't some friendly debate where I'm just gonna end up giving into everything you have to say.
I've wasted enough time and this whole thing hasn't progressed since it started, so I'll let you have the last word like always.
Go for it. Shoot it.

It's wasn't just you on the upset part Zack, alot of the others say or do things then get offended when others get hurt by what they say.. are we just to take what they say and turn the other cheek to be hurt again??

I do agree that there is more brain power makeing something your self.. which i never disagreed with but useing refs aren't going to hurt you any.. they are used as building blocks to become better, once you know all you need to know at that stage then you go to the next level of work whatever that may be..

All i'm saying is dont put down what helps people to get better or what they like to do to have fun... Its not very encouraging.

"It's wasn't just you on the upset part Zack, alot of the others say or do things then get offended when others get hurt by what they say.. are we just to take what they say and turn the other cheek to be hurt again??"
I'm not sure I understand you. I told you I'm not upset, and that people had a right to be upset with me.

"All i'm saying is dont put down what helps people to get better or what they like to do to have fun... Its not very encouraging."
Not to be rude, but when did I do that? Please back up that accusation with a quote of mine where I did that. I'm not saying for sure that I didn't, but I don't remember doing that.

I'm sorry Zack, i ment the people in general on both of the subjects... I'm not very good with expressing my self... I dont usually talk unless i have to.. so i dont even know why i'm commenting on the subjects in the first place.. I was not trying to be rude, i hope i didn't come across that way. Sorry again about that!

Wow, umber really is an evocative colour!

The nose is kinda odd.

So you used refs for all your other pics????

I mark all the pics I used refs for.


It's just much more fun to draw without refs.
I use to do these really detailed pics with a ref that took for ever to do.
but when people asked me to draw something out of my head it sucked.

Before i started drawing out of my head I didn't draw much at all. It just wasn't fun using refs all the time.

It was a big step backwards when I decided to stop drawing with refs and to start drawing out of my head.
But i have never been happier, and it made my art grow in more ways than I could imagen.

I never use refs without saying so. The description for this picture was for satire.